# Martin / Zimmerman police angle **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 15, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583 "2013-07-15T19:19:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/141 "2013-07-17T19:36:07Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Nuh-uh is perfectly valid when someone doesn’t provide a reason for something they insist happened. Dee Dee gave the reason why she thinks it happened. And she knew Martin personally. > [@](#): > > How often have you attacked some who asked “What are you doing around here”? Never. Of course, I have never smashed anyone’s head on the sidewalk either, or gotten shot. I _have_ been attacked for insufficient reasons. That happens sometimes - people attack each other for stupid reasons. Do you doubt this? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/142 "2013-07-17T19:47:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What evidence do we have for any illegal act before that? We cannot put Trayvon Martin on trial for the assault, because he is dead. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/143 "2013-07-17T19:50:17Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > We cannot put Trayvon Martin on trial for the assault, because he is dead. Correct. But we also can’t convict Zimmerman by saying that if only Martin were alive, he’d say something that would convict Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/144 "2013-07-17T20:40:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Would a rational person say that that conclusion is the only possible one, beyond a reasonable doubt? No, as I’ve said already if I were on the jury I would have to acquit because the prosecution did not prove their case, whatever it was. And I’m pretty sure I’d have the same conclusion if there was a competent prosecutor based on the evidence I know of. My point is that an awful lot of people are willing to believe that the person who according to the evidence was acting irrationally suddenly became rational, and the person who was doing nothing wrong suddenly started to act in an irrational manner. I don’t buy that on it’s face. The evidence is lacking to determine exactly what happened, but I don’t see the justification for simply accepting Zimmerman’s explanation. This has nothing to do with the court case, it’s about how the public is arriving at what I consider an erroneous conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/145 "2013-07-17T20:45:44Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > No, as I’ve said already if I were on the jury I would have to acquit because the prosecution did not prove their case, whatever it was. And I’m pretty sure I’d have the same conclusion if there was a competent prosecutor based on the evidence I know of. > > My point is that an awful lot of people are willing to believe that the person who according to the evidence was acting irrationally suddenly became rational, and the person who was doing nothing wrong suddenly started to act in an irrational manner. I don’t buy that on it’s face. The evidence is lacking to determine exactly what happened, but I don’t see the justification for simply accepting Zimmerman’s explanation. This has nothing to do with the court case, it’s about how the public is arriving at what I consider an erroneous conclusion. I’m sorry – I get you now. Agreed. Zimmerman, in my view, lied about at least a couple of things. I’m convinced he probably said something insulting, and may have even tried to grab Martin’s arm to hold him. That makes sense to me, just speculating. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/146 "2013-07-17T20:58:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m convinced he probably said something insulting, and may have even tried to grab Martin’s arm to hold him. Don’t you think that, if Zimmerman had said something insulting, Dee Dee would have remembered it? But she reported nothing of the sort. The only thing she reports Zimmerman as having said is “What are you doing around here?” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/147 "2013-07-17T21:07:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Don’t you think that, if Zimmerman had said something insulting, Dee Dee would have remembered it? But she reported nothing of the sort. The only thing she reports Zimmerman as having said is “What are you doing around here?” > > Regards, > Shodan Under the circumstances there’s no reason to believe she heard everything, and she wouldn’t have heard Zimmerman grabbing, punching, or otherwise making threatening gestures. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/148 "2013-07-17T21:07:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Don’t you think that, if Zimmerman had said something insulting, Dee Dee would have remembered it? But she reported nothing of the sort. The only thing she reports Zimmerman as having said is “What are you doing around here?” Again this is purely my speculation, for which there is no evidence, but Jeantel may well have heard Martin reply flippantly to “What are you doing around here?” and Zimmerman may have answered even more angrily in turn – after the phone call ended. Z: “What are you doing around here?” M: “None of your business, you fucking rapist creep.” (Unreported by Jeantel for fear it makes Martin look bad). (Zimmerman grabs Martin’s arm). M: “Get off!” (Phone call terminates) Z: “No snot-nosed punk is gonna call me a creep… I’m holding you for the police, you little shit.” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/149 "2013-07-17T22:16:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Correct. But we also can’t convict Zimmerman by saying that if only Martin were alive, he’d say something that would convict Zimmerman. I may have missed the flow of the conversation, but I didn’t think you were responding to attempts to convict Zimmerman, I thought you were responding to attempts to defend Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/150 "2013-07-17T22:18:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m sorry – I get you now. Agreed. Zimmerman, in my view, lied about at least a couple of things. I’m convinced he probably said something insulting, and may have even tried to grab Martin’s arm to hold him. That makes sense to me, just speculating. This clarifies my confusion expressed in my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/151 "2013-07-18T01:29:50Z")
> [@The\_Lurker\_Above](#): > > Yes, naturally the courts don’t let one conjure helpful testimony into the mouth of the deceased. And Zimmerman’s testimony is, legally, evidence. But where its not corroborated by other witnesses or the physical evidence I see no reason to give it any weight whatsoever. > > Unless I’ve missed something the only evidence of who started the fight is Zimmerman’s testimony and so I understand the frustration in the pro-Martin camp at some people treating Zimmerman’s unsupported word as gospel just because Martin can’t give his side of the story. And acting as if Zimmerman’s (IMO legally correct) acquittal is some type of governmental endorsement of his story. > **[Page Not Found](https://www.theinnoplex.com/news/newssub/rachel-jeantel-says-martin-threw-the-first-punch)** ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/152 "2013-07-18T01:36:22Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > [Page Not Found](https://www.theinnoplex.com/news/newssub/rachel-jeantel-says-martin-threw-the-first-punch) That is not evidence that Trayvon threw the first punch, it’s someone’s opinion. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/153 "2013-07-18T02:49:32Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > That is not evidence that Trayvon threw the first punch, it’s someone’s opinion. She was allegedly on the phone. There is zero evidence that Zimmerman threw any punches, just wishful thinking and conjecture. There is zero evidence that Zimmerman continued to follow Martin, considering that multiple witnesses claim that the confrontation begin west of the T before moving south. Zimmerman’s vehicle was west of the T, and Zimmerman claimed he was returning to it. If the witnesses are accurate, in six minutes from the time Martin ran, Zimmerman didn’t get very far. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583.md?page=7)