# Marvel Civil War...vote Stark or vote Cap?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 8, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003 "2015-06-08T21:08:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/21 "2015-06-09T04:00:10Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > I second **Trinopus** on supporting Stark…to a point. > > The writers of the comics themselves were all really fans of Cap, and thusly went out of their way to make Tony so stupidly “evil” that they overbalanced what could have been a good argument. A good discussion of the whole bloody thing here. [http://mightygodking.com/2011/05/22/civil-war-five-years-on/](http://mightygodking.com/2011/05/22/civil-war-five-years-on/) Also this one. [http://mightygodking.com/2014/10/20/nerrrrrd-raaaaaaaaage/](http://mightygodking.com/2014/10/20/nerrrrrd-raaaaaaaaage/) ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/22 "2015-06-09T04:49:41Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Years ago, like Cap, I took an oath to defend this country, and the Constitution, against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Stark is clearly a domestic enemy of Freedom, and he would unjustly deprive citizens of liberty in the name of “security”. This is the same fallacy that underlies the Patriot Act. You can be free, or you can have the illusion of safety. I choose freedom. Cool. I choose buildings that won’t topple over a month after they’re built, drugs that won’t cripple or kill me with unintended side effects and cars that have been extensively tested to not fail under unusual road conditions. Enjoy your freedom. ---
**Author:** ![CaptainAmerica\_1987](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@CaptainAmerica\_1987](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptainAmerica_1987)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/23 "2015-06-09T04:59:05Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Cool. I choose buildings that won’t topple over a month after they’re built, drugs that won’t cripple or kill me with unintended side effects and cars that have been extensively tested to not fail under unusual road conditions. > > Enjoy your freedom. If you have freedom and I mean REAL freedom than none of those things will be an issue or will be at a minimum to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/24 "2015-06-09T05:27:10Z")
Cap Let’s face it, registration isn’t about controlling the bigger threats - being registered or not doesn’t make a damn bit of difference should a Hulk or Thor choose to bust loose. It’s about controlling the little guys with less power, just like the Mutant Registration act is (with the bonus of kinda co-opting them into the armed forces). I am against the draft, and I’m against racist population registration acts, and this is both. ---
**Author:** ![Dioptre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/278dde/32.png) [@Dioptre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dioptre)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/25 "2015-06-09T06:19:42Z")
The exact terms of the registration are never entirely clear. I’m all for rules that say that only people acting as agents of the state should be using violence within the state, and only under carefully defined conditions. This means registration for anyone using superpowers as a vigilante, no question. On the other hand, registering and restricting particular people just because they meet an arbitrary classification based on who they are, that’s just downright evil. Tony Stark is a great poster-child for registration, because his only “superpower” is carrying around military-grade weaponry. I’m all for him being limited in the use his power. I’m also fine with Captain America wandering around unregistered, so long as he is willing to submit to civilian authority next time he recklessly throws that shield in public. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/26 "2015-06-09T06:21:23Z")
A lot could actually have been accomplished under existing laws. Class action lawsuits, indictments against “Unknown Suspects.” RICO act indictments. Deep investigations of money trails. Put enough FBI agents on the problem, and Spider-Man’s secret identity will be penetrated. No matter how much good he may have done, he’s broken hundreds and hundreds of laws, and is civilly liable for millions of dollars in damages. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/27 "2015-06-09T09:22:49Z")
> [@Dioptre](#): > > The exact terms of the registration are never entirely clear. Hell, in the comics run, weren’t they also _inconsistent?_ I mean, depending on who was writing what book, one side would be all reasonable sweetness and light, and the other one would be a bunch of deluded, baby-eating fascists/anarchists. Maybe I’ll just stick with voting for Street Poet Ray. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/28 "2015-06-09T09:38:59Z")
> [@Dioptre](#): > > The exact terms of the registration are never entirely clear. > > I’m all for rules that say that only people acting as agents of the state should be using violence within the state, and only under carefully defined conditions. This means registration for anyone using superpowers as a vigilante, no question. > > On the other hand, registering and restricting particular people just because they meet an arbitrary classification based on who they are, that’s just downright evil. > > Tony Stark is a great poster-child for registration, because his only “superpower” is carrying around military-grade weaponry. I’m all for him being limited in the use his power. I’m also fine with Captain America wandering around unregistered, so long as he is willing to submit to civilian authority next time he recklessly throws that shield in public. That’s pretty much where I come down. If you want to use your powers to be a hero, get a badge (or at least a metaphorical one). You don’t get to smash up half a city like one of those Family Guy chicken fights and then claim later you were just doing it for the greater good. Conversely, if you’re just going to mind your own business, no registration. (I’ve just realized that I’ve inadvertently restated a scene from the _Top Ten_ comic where all superheroes, mutants and other beings with special powers are made to live together in one city, but only those who join the police force are allowed to actually fight crime. Anyone else caught fighting a supervillain gets arrested for assault.) I’m not sure what the objection to the Negative Zone prison is, though. If you’re locking up people who punch through walls like tissue paper on a daily basis, extraordinary measures are required. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/29 "2015-06-09T09:53:20Z")
I vote for “Fuck you, Marvel.” When’s the last time the headline comic event of the minute _wasn’t_ about dragging the good guys through the mud and having them consider each other enemies? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/30 "2015-06-09T10:19:04Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Cap believes in freedom, Stark believes in government control. Cap is right, Stark is wrong. Cap is the babyface, Stark is the heel. If this thing is written/booked properly, it should end with Stark looking at the lights while the ref counts 1-2-3. Having his head shaved would be a bonus. …forget Cap or Stark, I’m on Oakminster’s team!!! ---
**Author:** ![Gothic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Gothic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gothic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/31 "2015-06-09T15:36:44Z")
Who could be trusted with registration? Why punish anyone before the crime? If people can’t decide between the two can they settle on Iron Patriot? ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/32 "2015-06-09T18:45:30Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > [snip]I’m not sure what the objection to the Negative Zone prison is, though. If you’re locking up people who punch through walls like tissue paper on a daily basis, extraordinary measures are required.[/snip] The Negative Zone? The place where Annihilus lives? The guy that hates all life? The Living Death that Walks? Sure, no problem there. A death sentence with no due process. The moment they put the prison there, that was the first thing I thought. ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/33 "2015-06-09T18:57:08Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I think what makes this discussion so interesting is that, for a change, Marvel went with more a shades of gray scenario instead of the usual black and white. You can look at this from either perspective and see the logic, and in the end both sides have good points as well as bad. In the actual story, in fact, both Stark and Cap, in the end, see the others side and actually agree with some of it, even while they are fighting it out. > > Personally, I always identified more with Stark, who I see a lot of myself in (including the asshole aspects as well as the drinking issue) than the stuck up prig who is the Cap (he’s better in the movies IMHO than in print), but I can see both of their sides here, and my own libertarian leanings would put me more on Caps side in this. That’s how I fall out here, too; Stark is pretty much my spirit animal, but I’m more on Cap’s side on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/34 "2015-06-09T19:07:11Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m not sure what the objection to the Negative Zone prison is, though. If you’re locking up people who punch through walls like tissue paper on a daily basis, extraordinary measures are required. I think the objection was that they were just packing supers into it without a trial, or any plans for a trial. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/35 "2015-06-09T19:30:00Z")
I’m with Cap. I don’t think there is any reason to register everyone with powers. Take the Blob; being able to become unmovable is not destructive in and of itself why do we need to track him. On the other hand there is Magneto but just knowing that someone can do whatever he wants with metal doesn’t help you prevent him from doing what he wants. Sure I’d want to know if i was living next to someone who could destroy the block but even them registering isn’t going to keep them from doing that. It occurs to me that mutants are more like pedophiles once they’ve done something horrible its a good idea to notify the neighbors if they are living close but until then there is no way to separate them from the harmless freaks. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/36 "2015-06-09T23:53:37Z")
As a normie with no powers, I’d have to reluctantly side with Stark because the super hero world is just too dangerous. But morally I’d support Cap. As a comic book reader and someone not facing death every day or the destruction of the world, Cap all the way ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/37 "2015-06-10T00:01:15Z")
Stark was right but they made him too cartoonishly evil and obviously wanted people to be on Caps side. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/38 "2015-06-10T07:48:14Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > That’s pretty much where I come down. If you want to use your powers to be a hero, get a badge (or at least a metaphorical one). You don’t get to smash up half a city like one of those Family Guy chicken fights and then claim later you were just doing it for the greater good. Conversely, if you’re just going to mind your own business, no registration. Totally, my friend. I mean, should a self-proclaimed superhero who’s “powers” consist solely of having guns, or being really good at beating or stabbing people get a pass? Is them having a homemade costume or a _Nom de Guerre_ what makes the difference, or them promising to _mostly_ not _deliberately_ kill anyone? However, for the unpopular opinion…I’m for powers registration. I’m sorry, but I think this is one of those areas, if treated with any degree of seriousness, where a work’s allegorical intent or comparisons to real-world precedents has to break, and we have to deal with it as an entirely new situation. Yeah, you don’t license people to live…but you don’t require people to get a license to walk, or ride a horse, or a bicycle. But it’s generally accepted that licensing and training to drive a car or fly a plane is a necessity. By the same logic, I don’t think it’s entirely unreasonable for people born with or acquiring superpowers to have these abilities logged, and depending on the case require them to get at least some (probably subsidized) safety training at an accredited institution. Not exactly a metahuman draft…though if people were _halfway_ intelligent about the situation, you’d think there’d be superpowered _job fairs_ and _enlistment bonuses_ for trained, rated superhumans. You hardly require a face tattoo or a big “ **MUTANT** ” label on your driver’s license—maybe an automated flag that would come up if the police ran your ID, if you had really potentially dangerous abilities. But for abilities that were benign or useless—like “Big Ears Lad” or “Shuffles Cards Really Fast Girl,” they probably could just be left under some kind of privacy block. Hell, considering how common they are as superpowers in most comic universes, _mildly superhuman strength and agility_ might not even be notable enough to garner a red flag. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/39 "2015-06-10T09:46:14Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > Totally, my friend. I mean, should a self-proclaimed superhero who’s “powers” consist solely of having guns, or being really good at beating or stabbing people get a pass? Hey, it works for Batman. > [@](#): > > However, for the unpopular opinion…I’m for powers registration. I’m sorry, but I think this is one of those areas, if treated with any degree of seriousness, where a work’s allegorical intent or comparisons to real-world precedents has to break, and we have to deal with it as an entirely new situation. Yeah, you don’t license people to live…but you don’t require people to get a license to walk, or ride a horse, or a bicycle. But it’s generally accepted that licensing and training to drive a car or fly a plane is a necessity. > > By the same logic, I don’t think it’s entirely unreasonable for people born with or acquiring superpowers to have these abilities logged, and depending on the case require them to get at least some (probably subsidized) safety training at an accredited institution. Not exactly a metahuman draft…though if people were _halfway_ intelligent about the situation, you’d think there’d be superpowered _job fairs_ and _enlistment bonuses_ for trained, rated superhumans. In theory I agree. In practice, however, the government (any government) has a bad, bad history of abusing its own powers and without some sort of significant check you _would_ end up with automatic conscription or internment camps or similar, all in the name of “public safety”. Before I agree to full registration I’d want some convincing checks on the use of that information. ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003/40 "2015-06-10T20:27:58Z")
I bet Iron Man knows what MySpace is. The choice is clear. (Still think that was one of the weirdest moments of the event) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-civil-war-vote-stark-or-vote-cap/722003.md?page=3)