# Marvel comics, the gods, \*the\* God, and where did humans come from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 23, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817 "2005-07-23T17:25:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/41 "2012-06-06T00:10:16Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Steve Rogers is so monotheistic that he firmly believes there is only one God, despite personally having met two others. He does not believe they are gods. For that matter, I think Thor makes reference to them not being gods as we use the term. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/42 "2012-06-06T00:51:12Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Definitely. Dracula explicitly says ‘That only works if you believe.’ > > Nightcrawler, a devout Catholic, replies ‘Then fear, creature, for I believe!’ > > Kitty Pryde makes an ineffectual attempt to ward of Dracula with a cross. He grabs her by the throat and is burned by her star of David. True, but since that contradicts the rules of the 70+ issues of the all-time awesome Tomb of Dracula comic. IIRC (and again, it’s been several years since I read 'em), Harold H. Harold an obviously stereotypical Jew of the Woody Allen variety backed Drac down with a cross. And given the whole archangel stuff where God (or Christ specifically) intervenes, it’s pretty clear that in ToD, Drac was allergic to Christ via the Cross, not to one’s belief in Christ. (Otherwise, why would some of the cool stuff they did in ToD, like set up spotlights with crosses painted on them, work?) I’m willing to assume it was just Claremont not doing his homework this once. As an aside, if anyone hasn’t read Tomb of Dracula, get the two Omnibuses of the original 70 issues. They’re some of Marvel’s best stuff ever (just keep in mind that the series doesn’t get going until issue 10-15–that range. Before that, it’s rotating writers and artists trying to find a direction) ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/43 "2012-06-06T01:07:28Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > In the recent Avenger’s movie, Captain America makes a reference to God, with a line something like “there is only one God”. “and I’m sure he doesn’t dress like that” I put that down to Cap’s 1944 outlook on life. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/44 "2012-06-06T02:31:29Z")
While there is not the overt pictorial manifestation of the Judeo-Christian God the Christian pantheon of angels and demons and big “G” Christian God as a character (though not pictured) is pretty much front and center in DC’s “Hellfire” series where hell and Satan are very much the Christian hell and Christian Satan. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/45 "2012-06-06T04:33:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That was from the two-part miniseries [_X-Men and Alpha Flight_](http://marvel.wikia.com/X-Men_and_Alpha_Flight_Vol_1_1), 1985. Haven’t read that. I was thinking of the Alpha Flight ish where Northstar runs off to Alfheim or something. > [@Fenris](#): > > Some writers like JM Dematthis try to shoehorn Hindu and Buddhist elements in but they’re always forgotten and ignored by everyone else (because they don’t fit the “mythology” that Moore/Gainman, etc created.) 😕 Gaiman largely used ancient pagan European mythology in his stuff. > [@Oakminster](#): > > He does not believe they are gods. For that matter, I think Thor makes reference to them not being gods as we use the term. Flaw in the English language, and other Indo-European languages I suppose. Or no, conceptual flaw. We use the same word for powerful non-unique guys like Thor as for philosophical ideas like the Prime Mover, or St. Anselm’s imagined maximal God who is averred to be real because he’s the most awesome thing ever and being imaginary would be less awesome. > [@Fenris](#): > > True, but since that contradicts the rules of the 70+ issues of the all-time awesome Tomb of Dracula comic. Wow, 70 issues? Well, I’m sure Marv had a reason to stop after only a few years. 😃 (Seriously, you think I’m going to side with Marv Wolfman over Chris Claremont, even on Marv’s own characters?) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/46 "2012-06-06T10:45:52Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > DC overtly accepts (pre-Flashpoint Reboot) the Judeo-Christian God. Not only is the Spectre A) the Wrath of God (so’s Eclipso–who’s responsible for Noah’s Flood–he got fired and the Spectre was the one who did all the stuff in Exodus) and B) an Archangel. We’ve seen heaven and it’s pretty damned close to the Judeo-Christian idea. We’ve seen Lucifer’s rebellion and fall. We’ve seen actual angels who’ve personally met God himself hang out in the Justice League. We’ve seen the Metatron. The fan-favorite origin of the Phantom Stranger is the one where he’s an angel who wouldn’t take sides in the rebellion. Some writers like JM Dematthis try to shoehorn Hindu and Buddhist elements in but they’re always forgotten and ignored by everyone else (because they don’t fit the “mythology” that Moore/Gainman, etc created.) Additionally, DC has a minor character called [Seraph](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraph_(comics)) who has had direct conversations with the big G, including a moment where G was quite wrothed by Seraph nearly beating a man to death after he’d surrendered. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/47 "2012-06-06T12:06:43Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > In the recent Avenger’s movie, Captain America makes a reference to God, with a line something like “there is only one God”. By contrast, upon hearing Loki’s sales pitch, the Hulk seems perfectly willing to grant that the guy is a god. A particular _ **type** _ of god, anyway. Something polysyllabic. Rhymes with “loony”. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/48 "2012-06-06T12:24:16Z")
> [@lhovis73](#): > > Also, there are characters within the Marvel universe who believe in the Judeo-Christian god, even if this god isn’t an ass-whoopin’ character in his own right, like Thor or Hercules. Nightcrawler was supposed to be Christian, Kitty Pride was supposed to be Jewish, etc. Nightcrawler is an ordained minister, apparently a priest but I missed the story of his ordination and don’t see how could it be RCC-kosher (don’t ask me about the details, I have no idea what kind of drugs the writer was on). Empath is a Catholic and there is a story where Magma tells him about meeting Hercules during a moment in which her faith was waning and having it strengthened by the meeting; Empath answers along the lines of “if you need to see, it’s not faith” (plus, seriously, Herc may be strong and all that jazz but there is nothing about that which makes his pantheon preeminent over others, and half the X-Men can kick his ass on a bad day). ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/49 "2012-06-06T12:36:11Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > You can publish stories about Thor, but you cannot make him blonde-haired and clean-shaven, with a winged helmet, six light-blue discs on a dark-blue tunic, and yellow boots. And you cannot claim that his hammer is made of “uru” metal. That version is Jack Kirby’s invention, and Marvel owns the trademarks and copyrights associated with it. > > If I understand correctly, you cannot publish a magazine in the USA with the title “Thor” without Marvel’s permission. nevermind ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/50 "2012-06-06T15:53:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **foolsguinea** : > > …or St. Anselm’s imagined maximal God who is averred to be real because he’s the most awesome thing ever and being imaginary would be less awesome. That is an absolutely awesome summary of the Ontological Argument. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/51 "2012-06-06T16:38:26Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Nightcrawler is an ordained minister, apparently a priest but I missed the story of his ordination and don’t see how could it be RCC-kosher (don’t ask me about the details, I have no idea what kind of drugs the writer was on)… IIRC, the writer-on-drugs in question was Chuck Austen. WE DON’T TALK ABOUT THAT. I think it was the same storyline where Nightcrawler (and a bunch of other mutants) were _really (descended from) demons_. and Angel (and a bunch of other mutants) were _really (descended from) angels_. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/52 "2012-06-06T18:14:23Z")
Speaking of Hercules … now, I’m not an expert on Greek/Roman mythology, but wasn’t Herc simply a legendary _hero_? I didn’t think he was a god. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/53 "2012-06-06T18:25:12Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Speaking of Hercules … now, I’m not an expert on Greek/Roman mythology, but wasn’t Herc simply a legendary _hero_? I didn’t think he was a god. Well, demigod. His dad (and great-great-grandfather, incidentally) was Zeus. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/54 "2012-06-06T19:29:32Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Speaking of Hercules … now, I’m not an expert on Greek/Roman mythology, but wasn’t Herc simply a legendary _hero_? I didn’t think he was a god. At the end of Herakles/Hercules’ life, he was (unwittingly) poisoned by his wife Deianira, using a certain potion she had been given by the Kentaur Nessus which would, Nessus said, ensure that Herakles would never be unfaithful to her after it was administered. Said potion was made from Nessus’ blood, and as Nessus was dying from one of Herakles’ poisoned arrow at that time (shot because he had abducted Deiarnia with carnal intent moments earlier), that potion predictably had more malign effects. To wit, once Herakles donned a cloak that had been dipped into the potion he was consumed with such terrible burning agony that death seemed better. Unfortunately, being closer to god than man, he couldn’t die from it. Thus he built (or had built) a pyre upon which he immolated himself. The mortal part of him was consumed and went to Hades. The divine part of him went to Olympus, was given full godhood, and married Hebe, daughter of Hera, to signify his final reconciliation with the Queen of Heaven. So, yes, Herakles would be a good by the twenty-first century. Though his mortal shade would be in Hades, moping around and looking for a fight. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, demigod. His dad (and great-great-grandfather, incidentally) was Zeus. And father-in-law, though that didn’t kick in till he married the above-mentioned Hebe. And I’m sure he eventually got it on with all his other divine relatives but three. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/55 "2012-06-06T20:46:04Z")
> [@](#): > > And I’m sure he eventually got it on with all his other divine relatives but three. By which he (and everyone else) was missing out, of course. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/56 "2012-06-06T21:32:54Z")
Originally, Kurt was more of a lovable rogue (He loved Zorro movies and Errol Flynn). His being a devout Catholic came later. The first Nightcrawler miniseries was a wild, swashbuckling romp across dimensions. It’s just plain fun. The second Nightcrawler miniseries is all about faith and attempting to do good in a world of so much evil. I love both series Non spoilers from the second series- Talking about the priesthood- Kurt-‘It’s not so different from the X Men. We wear uniforms. We have special powers. We follow a magnificent leader-’ Father whasssisname- Me? Now, Kurt, I’m not- Kurt- Not you. (Points at crucifix) Him. Chatting with Professor X Kurt-’ Are we communicating telepathically?’ Professor- ‘No, you’re just hallucinating from blood loss.’ Kurt-‘Ah. Danke for you honesty, herr professor.’ Professor- ‘You seem disappointed.’ Kurt-’ It’s just- If I’m dying, there’s some one else I expected to see’ Professor- ‘Don’t you see Kurt? He answered your prayer. You’re going to live.’ Back to the OP Marvel had a character named the Crusader. He saw it as his God given mission to destroy ‘false gods’ like Thor and Hercules. His powers rose and fell with his level of faith. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/57 "2012-06-06T22:25:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > By which he (and everyone else) was missing out, of course. Actually it should have been four. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/58 "2012-06-06T22:29:08Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > At the end of Herakles/Hercules’ life, he was (unwittingly) poisoned by his wife Deianira, using a certain potion she had been given by the Kentaur Nessus which would, Nessus said, ensure that Herakles would never be unfaithful to her after it was administered. Said potion was made from Nessus’ blood, and as Nessus was dying from one of Herakles’ poisoned arrow at that time (shot because he had abducted Deiarnia with carnal intent moments earlier), that potion predictably had more malign effects. To wit, once Herakles donned a cloak that had been dipped into the potion he was consumed with such terrible burning agony that death seemed better. Unfortunately, being closer to god than man, he couldn’t die from it. Thus he built (or had built) a pyre upon which he immolated himself. The mortal part of him was consumed and went to Hades. The divine part of him went to Olympus, was given full godhood, and married Hebe, daughter of Hera, to signify his final reconciliation with the Queen of Heaven. > > So, yes, Herakles would be a good by the twenty-first century. Though his mortal shade would be in Hades, moping around and looking for a fight. Wow, that sounds … complicated! Thanks for the clarification. I really need to get up to speed on my classical mythology. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/59 "2012-06-06T22:35:50Z")
**Mister Rik** if you like comics and mythology, I heartily recommend Eddie Campbell’s Bacchus series. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817/60 "2012-06-06T22:37:06Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Wow, that sounds … complicated! Thanks for the clarification. I really need to get up to speed on my classical mythology. And I didn’t even mention how Herakles _partially_ reconciled with Hera. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvel-comics-the-gods-the-god-and-where-did-humans-come-from/313817.md?page=4)