# Marvel's Avengers - early reviews seem positive \[edited title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 20, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406 "2012-04-20T13:18:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406/281 "2012-07-03T19:31:03Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > It’s funny though, the overall bad guy scheme wasn’t very good I saw a great theory about this, actually. The short version is Loki’s obvious scheme failed, but the hidden one succeeded: he’s now back in Asgard. He doesn’t care about ruling Earth, he wanted Asgard. If Iron Man hadn’t interrupted Thor and Loki on that rock in the middle of the woods, Loki might well have gone back with Thor willingly. > [@Alessan](#): > > Heroes generally are. Word. Marvel’s generally been grittier than DC; it’s DC’s heroes that tend towards non-lethality. Captain America might be Marvel’s version of Superman, with all the honor and goodness that entails, but Cap is unequivocally _American_, and in WW2 it was entirely American to kill Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406/282 "2012-07-03T19:32:29Z")
Besides, Loki is too good a villain to kill! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406/283 "2012-07-03T19:39:32Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > In wartime, when it’s army vs army, it’s kill or be killed. When it’s personal and one-on-one, these heroes defeat without killing. It means that when they have killed, it was done as a last, regretful resort. That’s not the attitude of someone I’d think of as a “killer.” “Huh, that tank had the nerve to _shoot_ at me. How rude! I’ll just plink them with my rocket-pen and coolly walk away while they explode and burn to death. I AM IRON MAN, BITCHES!” I’m not complaining, mind you. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406/284 "2012-07-03T19:42:21Z")
> [@Student\_Driver](#): > > Just five. The Ang Lee _Hulk_ movie isn’t part of the current Marvel movie universe. How the hell isn’t it? It’s the precursor to Hulk 2, that is canon. > [@twickster](#): > > If there’s something you want to discuss openly, use the “+” quote button on the post or posts you want to refer to and you can go across threads. I’m not going to move one person’s post at a different person’s request. > > **twickster** , Cafe Society moderator Why did you interpret this as a request to a mod, and not a request to the other conversation participants? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406/285 "2012-07-04T01:42:24Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Why did you interpret this as a request to a mod, and not a request to the other conversation participants? 😕 I’ll be honest with you, I don’t recall the exact series of events, or my resulting thought process, from two months ago. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406/286 "2012-07-04T03:23:01Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Besides, Loki is too good a villain to kill! He can’t be killed until Ragnarok anyway - he is supposed to die in combat with [Heimdallr](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimdallr). It’s already been written ;). ---
**Author:** ![Arabella\_Flynn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8491ac/32.png) [@Arabella\_Flynn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arabella_Flynn)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406/287 "2012-07-04T09:10:15Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > How the hell isn’t it? It’s the precursor to Hulk 2, that is canon. Word of God is now that the Ang Lee film is not part of the multi-series universe that went into Avengers. The Edward Norton movie is considered the “official” Hulk movie, and its foundations were covered in flashback in the very beginning of the film. Some of the finer details were left to a companion comic miniseries, but the gist is almost the same as the old TV show: Banner was doing medical research, decided to test on himself, was an idiot and didn’t look at the output level before he turned the machine on, and Hulk consequently Smash. The main difference seems to have been that the research was specifically on anti-radiation medicine, and that Betty seems to have been in the lab and survived. They were trying to get Norton to reprise his role for Avengers, but negotiations broke down, and he suggested Mark Ruffalo instead. I appreciate the change. Norton’s Banner was very inside-his-own-head and I don’t think he would have worked nearly as well for a group film. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406/288 "2012-07-04T12:53:12Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > In fact, the only member of the Avengers who hasn’t murdered at least a dozen people… is the Hulk. I don’t remember the Ang Lee Hulk very well- but that movie (as **Arabella Flynn** points out) isn’t in-universe anyway. Edward Norton’s Hulk (which despite lack of actor continuity definitely _is_ in-universe with _The Avengers_) most definitely _did_ kill people- and people who weren’t even bad guys! Even if you want to insist that the bully co-workers and the American soldiers in the bottling plant for the first Hulk-Out of the movie were only injured by all the Hulk SMASH but that they all survived. If you want to insist that all the soldiers that participated in the college campus siege, those in vehicles subjected to Hulk SMASH, were only injured but survived. Still, in dialog General Ross reports about four confirmed fatalities from Hulk run-ins- and the fatalities weren’t even all military. All deaths occured during previous Hulk-Outs prior to the start of the film. We don’t see them but I see no reason to assume General Ross is lying- the dialog comes while he is prepping his team to try to capture Banner, they wouldn’t be well prepped by misinformation (despite the fact that Ross _withholds_ information- withheld information and misinformation are different). I would insist that there have to have been fatalities, if not on campus, at least during the first Hulk-Out at the bottling plant. > [@Arabella\_Flynn](#): > > Banner was doing medical research, decided to test on himself, was an idiot and didn’t look at the output level before he turned the machine on, and Hulk consequently Smash. The main difference seems to have been that the research was specifically on anti-radiation medicine, and that Betty seems to have been in the lab and survived. The dialog between Coulson and Captain America annoys me when Coulson tells Cap that Banner inadvertantly created the Hulk when trying to recreate the supersoldier serum. That explanation makes it sound like the serum was Banner’s goal. In _The Incredible Hulk_, Ross explains to Blonsky that Banner thought he was only working on resistence to Gamma radiation and that he (Ross) “never would have told him what we were _really_ working on.” > [@Arabella\_Flynn](#): > > They were trying to get Norton to reprise his role for Avengers, but negotiations broke down, and he suggested Mark Ruffalo instead. I appreciate the change. Norton’s Banner was very inside-his-own-head and I don’t think he would have worked nearly as well for a group film. I really liked Norton’s Banner and was really disappointed that he wouldn’t reprise the role but ultimately the characters are really very different. I don’t think Ruffalo would have worked as the Banner in _The Incredible Hulk_ and I don’t think Norton would have worked as the Banner in _The Avengers_. Either several pages back in this Thread, or possibly in the other Avengers Thread that ran concurrent with this one when the movie first came out, I made a lengthy post explaining how I really think the characterization of Banner/Hulk is very different- going beyond the change in casting- from _The Incredible Hulk_ to _The Avengers_. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406/289 "2012-07-04T17:41:26Z")
Is the new Spiderman in the Avengers universe? If so will Spidey be in Avengers 2? Our plan when Avengers 2 comes out is to rewatch all of the in-universe movies in chronological (not release) order which I believe is Captain America Iron Man Hulk2 Iron Man 2 Thor Avengers Anyone have a different order? ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406/290 "2012-07-04T17:56:32Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Is the new Spiderman in the Avengers universe? No, the film rights to Spider-Man belong to a different company. Likewise for the Fantastic Four. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406/291 "2012-07-04T19:36:51Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > No, the film rights to Spider-Man belong to a different company. Likewise for the Fantastic Four. And X-Men, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406/292 "2012-07-04T19:38:16Z")
Thor, Cap, Iron Man, Hulk, Avengers, etc all belong to Disney. FOX has X-Men and the F4, and Sony has Spider-Man. I’m not sure who has Blade, Ghost Rider, DareDevil, Punisher, et al. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406/293 "2012-07-04T20:38:57Z")
> [@Ephemera](#): > > Thor, Cap, Iron Man, Hulk, Avengers, etc all belong to Disney. FOX has X-Men and the F4, and Sony has Spider-Man. > > **I’m not sure who has Blade, Ghost Rider, DareDevil, Punisher, et al**. Somebody who has fired their negotiators and lawyers, probably. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406/294 "2012-07-04T21:06:42Z")
> [@Ephemera](#): > > I’m not sure who has Blade, Ghost Rider, DareDevil, Punisher, et al. Blade: [Marvel.](http://movies.yahoo.com/news/marvel-regains-movie-rights-blade-183100445.html) Ghost Rider: [Marvel, apparently](http://collider.com/ghost-rider-rights/134709/), but the issue may yet be in dispute. Daredevil: [Regency and Fox](http://www.deadline.com/2010/02/exclusive-latest-marvel-hero-to-reboot/), though if the current reboot efforts fall through, back to Marvel. Punisher: [Marvel](http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/blade/17818/marvel-gets-blade-and-the-punisher-screen-rights-back-more-movies-coming). At least that’s what a quick check reveals. It looks like Marvel, now with Disney backing, wants all its characters to come home. I have to admit feeling vaguely intrigued by the idea of, say, two or three Marvel movies a year from a single studio (or through strict arrangements with other studios) that all take place in a common universe and can have frequent character crossovers. ---
**Author:** ![Arabella\_Flynn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8491ac/32.png) [@Arabella\_Flynn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arabella_Flynn)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406/295 "2012-07-05T08:09:00Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > I really liked Norton’s Banner and was really disappointed that he wouldn’t reprise the role but ultimately the characters are really very different. I don’t think Ruffalo would have worked as the Banner in _The Incredible Hulk_ and I don’t think Norton would have worked as the Banner in _The Avengers_. > > Either several pages back in this Thread, or possibly in the other Avengers Thread that ran concurrent with this one when the movie first came out, I made a lengthy post explaining how I really think the characterization of Banner/Hulk is very different- going beyond the change in casting- from _The Incredible Hulk_ to _The Avengers_. It is indeed extremely different. AFAICT, Norton’s Hulk movie was an Ed Norton movie guest-starring the Hulk – like most of his projects, it was a film exploring how one man reacted to the destructive impulses within himself, and how he coped with the pieces of the outside world that brought out the rage. That kind of thing requires you to spend a lot of time in the protagonist’s head, which they simply couldn’t have done in an ensemble film. Ruffalo’s version seems to have come to some sort of tentative agreement with the Other Guy, and his character interaction is with the outside world that threatens to knock him off balance. I think it works a lot better in a film where most of the point is to watch the characters bounce off each other, in some cases literally. 😃 For bonus amusement, I went and watched a lot of the press stuff the cast did for the Avengers movie. I’m not sure I would have thought to call Ruffalo for Banner on the basis of other roles I’ve seen him in – he’s generally very good, though very different, and a knack for accents makes him difficult to recognize at times – but it makes more sense when you see him speak as himself. Banner’s slightly off-kilter sarcasm is pretty much his own personality, with the volume turned down by about half. He’s the quietest in the lineup, and only now seems to be getting over being surprised every time someone directs a question at him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marvels-avengers-early-reviews-seem-positive-edited-title/619406.md?page=14)