# Marxist/Leninist Communism: How to folks keep the faith? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2005, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039 "2005-06-13T03:12:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/61 "2005-06-15T04:57:20Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > And I think ‘steering the economy’ is folly. Japan is not a good example. Their economy is very sick. “Sick” by the standard of Japan is still richer than 99.9% of all the rest of the people in the world and has gotten there from being, in 1945, essentially burned to the ground, all without the benefit of natural resources. If a $30K/per capita GDP and a 4.7% unemployment rate are “sick,” let me live in that hospital. ---
**Author:** ![WonJohnSoup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f17d59/32.png) [@WonJohnSoup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WonJohnSoup)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/62 "2005-06-15T06:03:59Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > “Sick” by the standard of Japan is still richer than 99.9% of all the rest of the people in the world and has gotten there from being, in 1945, essentially burned to the ground, all without the benefit of natural resources. If a $30K/per capita GDP and a 4.7% unemployment rate are “sick,” let me live in that hospital. Yeah. That. And they’ve been picking up the last year or so. So it’s been sick in the recent recent past, but apparently the steering of the economy was just hunky dory. ---
**Author:** ![Joools](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6de8d8/32.png) [@Joools](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joools)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/63 "2005-06-15T06:53:22Z")
I’m sorry, but after reading through nearly two full pages of this thread, I have yet to see any of the “several out and out Marxist type Communists on this board, as well as several closet ones who blast from the shadows” referred to in the OP actually materialize to advocate their position. For example, I haven’t seen anyone saying that a socialist revolution is inevitable, or even desireable. Frankly it seems that there are more statements of dogma coming from the defenders of Capitalism on this thread than anything else. So one possible answer to the OP is that “Marxist/Leninist Communists” are in fact _not_ “keeping the faith” – that what you’re describing is a political philosophy that isn’t actually seriously held by any substantial number of people in America today. Communist, Marxist, Leninst and Stalinist are all labels that certainly get thrown around a lot, but that’s often just a lot of political hyperbole. Strip that away, and I’d suspect this wouldn’t be such a puzzle. There are a lot of shades of gray between laissez-faire free market capitalism and communist socialism, and probably a lot more people somewhere in the middle than at either end. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/64 "2005-06-15T08:20:12Z")
> [@Joools](#): > > I’m sorry, but after reading through nearly two full pages of this thread, I have yet to see any of the “several out and out Marxist type Communists on this board, as well as several closet ones who blast from the shadows” referred to in the OP actually materialize to advocate their position. For example, I haven’t seen anyone saying that a socialist revolution is inevitable, or even desireable. Frankly it seems that there are more statements of dogma coming from the defenders of Capitalism on this thread than anything else. > > So one possible answer to the OP is that “Marxist/Leninist Communists” are in fact _not_ “keeping the faith” – that what you’re describing is a political philosophy that isn’t actually seriously held by any substantial number of people in America today. > > Communist, Marxist, Leninst and Stalinist are all labels that certainly get thrown around a lot, but that’s often just a lot of political hyperbole. Strip that away, and I’d suspect this wouldn’t be such a puzzle. There are a lot of shades of gray between laissez-faire free market capitalism and communist socialism, and probably a lot more people somewhere in the middle than at either end. I don’t think there are any communists on this board. There are plenty of ignorant people who don’t understand the difference between social democracy and totalitarianism or using analytical tools informed by Marist concepts to critique aspects of capitalism without that automatically implying state farms and Gulags though. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/65 "2005-06-15T13:11:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What are you talking about? Every society has a collective memory. Pooh-pooh. Rubbish. A 19th Century idea. If it exists, cite? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/66 "2005-06-15T13:57:40Z")
> [@Joools](#): > > So one possible answer to the OP is that “Marxist/Leninist Communists” are in fact _not_ “keeping the faith” – that what you’re describing is a political philosophy that isn’t actually seriously held by any substantial number of people in America today. No, the problem seems to be that some people’s conception of “Marxist/Leninist Communists” is too simplistic. Maybe nobody on this board believes that the revolution is inevitable, but here’s a sect that does: [http://www.etext.org/Politics/Peoples.Tribune/Volume.22/pt-22.20](http://www.etext.org/Politics/Peoples.Tribune/Volume.22/pt-22.20) (quote is from 1995) > [@](#): > > A great convening of revolutionaries! The response of the poor to > the fascist terrorists, racists and murderers! A rejection of > President Clinton’s policy of unending compromise with the > billionaires who are robbing the people and destroying the > country! A united and successful gathering of the organizational > leaders of the new class of the poor! > > The Second Convention of the League of Revolutionaries for a New > America (formerly the National Organizing Committee) was all that, > and more. > > The founding convention in 1992 was a statement of intent, as all > founding conventions are. That intent was to create an > organization of revolutionaries from the thousands of fighters who > were already convinced that social revolution is the inevitable > result of the on- going economic revolution. The question is no > longer “will the country change?” but “in whose interests will it > change?” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/67 "2005-06-15T13:59:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > China’s unholy alliance with Wal Mart? Saw _Frontline_ the other day, didja? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/68 "2005-06-15T13:59:35Z")
> [@Joools](#): > > So one possible answer to the OP is that “Marxist/Leninist Communists” are in fact _not_ “keeping the faith” – that what you’re describing is a political philosophy that isn’t actually seriously held by any substantial number of people in America today. Oh, there are [plenty of them around.](http://www.workers.org/) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/69 "2005-06-15T14:30:28Z")
> [@](#): > > The only way to defeat Microsoft was to create a different paradigm, and by goodness, it’s working. Really? I haen’t seen their bottom line falling, personally. Seriously, Microsoft does a lot of boring work that people using Open Source… don’t. And don’t do as well. Which is why Linux isn’t exactlty tearing up the consumer market. The only place it really has an advantage is the server market, and even that’s a balancing act. > [@](#): > > I think what’s going to happen eventually is kind of like what’s happening in Europe – societies will use the free market to build wealth, but will also develop extensive social safety nets “This far, and no farther, shall you fall in our society. We will not have homeless beggars roaming our streets.” Haven’t seen Europe recently, have you? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/70 "2005-06-15T14:48:47Z")
Like [Prague](http://www.ce-review.org/99/21/lerouzic21.html), for example. Or [Paris](http://www.orange.com/Textonly/responsibility/homelessinfrance.asp?UID=). ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/71 "2005-06-15T14:50:57Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Oh, there are [plenty of them around.](http://www.workers.org/) Ooh - a web page! Tremble in fear before the techno-prowess of our soon-to-be Red Overlords! How about this one then? [Leftist Presidential Votes](http://reds.linefeed.org/votes.html#WWP) Dammit - in 2000 (the site seems to have died in 2002) there were upwards of … Oh God - the horror, the horror - 19k votes for left candidates (and no, the Greens are not hard left in the Reality Based Community). It’s like Red Dawn all over again. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![pdx\_craig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e495f1/32.png) [@pdx\_craig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pdx_craig)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/72 "2005-06-15T15:25:46Z")
The Marxist-Leninists lost their bid to take over the world. It’s that simple. The plan doesn’t even make sense anymore even if you do buy into the philosophy. I don’t have a cite for this, but my experience in talking to lefties leads me to believe that most of them are reformers rather than revolutionaries. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/73 "2005-06-15T15:39:56Z")
> [@pdx\_craig](#): > > The Marxist-Leninists lost their bid to take over the world. It’s that simple. The plan doesn’t even make sense anymore even if you do buy into the philosophy. > > I don’t have a cite for this, but my experience in talking to lefties leads me to believe that most of them are reformers rather than revolutionaries. I haven’t met one in years. Even in progressive UK circles they are a joke, a tiny bunch of ‘useful idiots’, usually Trotskites, who will parasitically leap onto a bandwagon and do all the hard work organising demonstrations in the hope that they might pick up a recruit. Thanks guys, now f\*\*\* off. But make some sandwiches first. Half of them are probably spies anyway. To think that anyone over the age of 20 takes them or their proletarian revolution crap seriously is paranoia. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/74 "2005-06-15T16:55:23Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Haven’t seen Europe recently, have you? Careful examination of my post will show that I used the future tense in describing the end of homelessness. I did not mean to imply that all of Europe had reached that goal. In fact, an English poster was recently quite incensed about the reappearance of homeless beggars in England. They’re a lot closer than we are, though. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/75 "2005-06-15T17:45:16Z")
> [@Joools](#): > > I’m sorry, but after reading through nearly two full pages of this thread, I have yet to see any of the “several out and out Marxist type Communists on this board, as well as several closet ones who blast from the shadows” referred to in the OP actually materialize to advocate their position. For example, I haven’t seen anyone saying that a socialist revolution is inevitable, or even desireable. Frankly it seems that there are more statements of dogma coming from the defenders of Capitalism on this thread than anything else. Well, I’m sorry you feel that way Joools. Granted none of the out and out communists on this board (there are a few…or there were anyway before we went to a pay to play system 😉 ) have dipped a toe into this thread. I was kind of hoping some of them would but wasn’t really expecting them as I haven’t seen them around much of late. As to the closet types…well, they are in the closet, aren’t they? I don’t any of them admit to having marxist tendencies, probably even to themselves, but you can see the theme if you pay enough attention in the various threads that even touch on economics, capitalism, social programs, etc. Its the same tired old ‘from each according to his ability, to each according to his need’…in fact I’ve actually seen that quoted near verbatim on this board more than once and in all seriousness. You see it in the general discussions of class warfare tossed about, in how the characatured Capitalist Pig types exploit the masses, etc. Sorry, I’m not going to waste my time digging through mountains of posts to satisfy you…besides, what looks like closet or quasi-Marxism to me might look different to you. We use different filters when processing the various posts and what underlies what the poster is REALLY saying. And I will grant you that the closet types aren’t hard core Marxists waiting for the revolution…they are still just using the same old tired themes. > [@Joools](#): > > So one possible answer to the OP is that “Marxist/Leninist Communists” are in fact _not_ “keeping the faith” – that what you’re describing is a political philosophy that isn’t actually seriously held by any substantial number of people in America today. That would certainly be one answer, and to an extent it might even be close to correct. In point of fact, I DON’T think the majority of the people of America today hold with Marxist or even quasi-marxists beliefs. I’m not blind to the fact that there are folks out there (and more than a few on this board) under different lables who either secretly or maybe unknowingly (the more likely case) hold to quite a few core beliefs of Marxism/Communism though…even if they don’t self lable themselves as Marxist or Communist. > [@Joools](#): > > Communist, Marxist, Leninst and Stalinist are all labels that certainly get thrown around a lot, but that’s often just a lot of political hyperbole. Strip that away, and I’d suspect this wouldn’t be such a puzzle. There are a lot of shades of gray between laissez-faire free market capitalism and communist socialism, and probably a lot more people somewhere in the middle than at either end. I disagree…to a point. Certainly Marxist, Leninist, Stalinist, Mao-ist, etc are all lables that are used in political hyperbole. However, there IS a core set of economic and social/class beliefs that are a part of them…and in many cases people knowingly or unknowingly continue to toss them out (the ideas, the themes, the concepts), in spite of the fact that the entire communist system historically has been an utter failure. Perhaps the folks who are closet Marxist/Communist types (or at least subscribe to SOME of the beliefs) think that, well, all this didn’t work…but THIS is still good and can work. I’m unsure. Thats kind of why I started this thread to see what came out of it. Its been…unsatisfying thus far. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/76 "2005-06-15T17:46:37Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Pooh-pooh. > Rubbish. > A 19th Century idea. > If it [collective memory] exists, cite? :dubious: See [http://www.mediahistory.umn.edu/memory.html;](http://www.mediahistory.umn.edu/memory.html;) [http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~aeg/aipsw98/node2.html;](http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~aeg/aipsw98/node2.html;) [http://www.cnrs.fr/cw/en/pres/compress/memoire/lavabre.htm](http://www.cnrs.fr/cw/en/pres/compress/memoire/lavabre.htm). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/77 "2005-06-15T17:50:31Z")
There was one diehard communist who used to post from time to time (can’t remember his user name) and a few folks who’d come in briefly, rag on anyone who disagreed with them, and promptely get banned. Our resident “commie” had a good sense of humor, and was able to debate his cause without _ad hominems_. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/78 "2005-06-15T17:53:05Z")
There were two actually, IIRC, though I can’t remember their names now. I don’t think either was ever banned, but I think they just faded out when we went to being a pay site. As you say though, there have been quite a few who have come on all full of piss and vinegar and were pretty much banned. -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/79 "2005-06-15T17:55:59Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I don’t think either was ever banned, but I think they just faded out when we went to being a pay site. Not surprising, since they were communists. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039/80 "2005-06-15T18:01:35Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > There was one diehard communist who used to post from time to time (can’t remember his user name) . . . Are you referring to **Olentzero?** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marxist-leninist-communism-how-to-folks-keep-the-faith/308039.md?page=5)