# Mary and Pharaoh **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 19, 2019, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769 "2019-04-19T13:42:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/1 "2019-04-19T13:42:33Z")
The well-known song goes “Oh Mary, don’t you weep don’t you mourn. Pharaoh’s army got drownded. Oh Mary don’t you weep.” Isn’t this an anachronism? How many years before Mary did Pharaoh’s army get drownded? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/2 "2019-04-19T13:46:52Z")
> [@jaycat](#): > > The well-known song goes “Oh Mary, don’t you weep don’t you mourn. Pharaoh’s army got drownded. Oh Mary don’t you weep.” > > Isn’t this an anachronism? How many years before Mary did Pharaoh’s army get drownded? The “Mary” in the song\* is undoubtedly Miriam, Moses’ sister. She’s traditionally identified with the one who placed the infant Moses in the basket in the Nile (although she’s not identified as such in the Bible). the song is pretty clearly referring to this: > [@](#): > > In the biblical narrative of the exodus, Miriam is described as a “prophetess” when she leads the Israelites in the Song of the Sea after Pharoah’s army is destroyed at the Sea of Reeds.[6]:71 The Song of the Sea is sometimes called one of the oldest preserved bits in the account. So there’s no anachronism. “Mary” was on the scene when the Pharoah’s army got drowned. > **[Miriam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miriam)** > > Miriam (Hebrew: מִרְיָם Mīryām, lit. 'Rebellion') is described in the Hebrew Bible as the daughter of Amram and Jochebed, and the older sister of Moses and Aaron. She was a prophetess and first appears in the Book of Exodus. > The Torah refers to her as "Miriam the Prophetess" and the Talmud names her as one of the seven major female prophets of Israel. Scripture describes her alongside of Moses and Aaron as delivering the Jews from exile in Egypt: "For I brought you up out of the land of Egypt an... \*I’m not familiar with this song. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/3 "2019-04-19T13:56:23Z")
Song. It’s a very old Negro Spiritual. I listened to the audio and it’s very well done. Nice harmonies. [http://web.lyon.edu/wolfcollection/songs/southernairesmary1257.html](http://web.lyon.edu/wolfcollection/songs/southernairesmary1257.html) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/4 "2019-04-19T14:03:18Z")
Ranked #10 among Negro Spirituals. I’ve always loved this music. > **[The Most Beautiful Negro Spiritual Songs](https://www.ranker.com/list/famous-negro-spiritual-songs/ranker-music)** > > The best negro spiritual songs are those that move the spirit. Many of these spiritual songs were created in the 19th century, when African-American slave communities sang them to tell their own stories. Many of the top negro spiritual songs on... ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/5 "2019-04-19T14:13:44Z")
I’m not usually a Springsteen fan, but [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tebjshm7f_I)is pretty hot. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/6 "2019-04-19T14:15:36Z")
I think there’s also a implied new testament connection to Mary & Martha. Different time period but a powerful moment in the Gospel. Mary weeps at the death of Lazarus. John 11:27 Jesus is moved and raises him from the dead. Mary Anoints Jesus at Bethany John 12:1-9 Luke 7:36-50. > [@](#): > > Lord, I’m singing . . . (solo) > Oh, Mary, don’t you weep. (group) > Tell Martha not to mourn. (solo) > Tell Martha not to mourn. (group) > Listen, Mary, (solo) > Oh, Mary, don’t you weep. (group) > Tell Martha not to mourn. (solo) > Tell Martha not to mourn. (group) > Pharaoh’s army, (solo) > Oh, Mary, don’t you weep. (group) > They got drownded in the sea, (solo) > Drowned in the Red Sea. (group) ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/7 "2019-04-19T14:23:48Z")
I think you’re missing what’s going on. It’s not meant to be a history retelling. It’s weaving different Bible stories together to express a theme of hope and deliverance. Both a spiritual deliverance, but also a temporal deliverance from slavery. Mary is the Mary who listened to Christ and ‘chose the better portion,’ but she’s also the listener-presumably other slaves. Pharaohs army is indeed the army that chased Moses, but also the slave owners and their foremen. It also combines hope and deliverance messages from Noahs story, Lazarus (Mary’s dead brother and the only time we see Christ cry), and Paul’s imprisonment. All are redemption stories about how eventually God will save their souls and also their bodies from both spiritual and physical bondage. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/8 "2019-04-19T14:27:37Z")
Very well said senoy. That’s my impression of the song too. I didn’t express it quite as well. Mary acknowledges Christ as the Messiah. It all ties into the most powerful scripture of the New Testament. It’s the core message of the Christian Church. John 11:25 King James Version (KJV) 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/9 "2019-04-19T14:46:36Z")
_correction_ Martha acknowledges Christ in John 11:27 Got my names crossed up. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/10 "2019-04-19T15:09:16Z")
It isn’t Miriam. Another line from at least some versions of the song: “Mary wore three links of chain Every link was Jesus’ name.” **senoy** has it right; the song is not intended to retell a particular Biblical story, but references a combination of stories about a single theme. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/11 "2019-04-19T15:56:06Z")
Is _drownded_ an actual word? Or is this cultural nomenclature. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/12 "2019-04-19T15:56:43Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > It isn’t Miriam. > Another line from at least some versions of the song: > > “Mary wore three links of chain > Every link was Jesus’ name.” > > **senoy** has it right; the song is not intended to retell a particular Biblical story, but references a combination of stories about a single theme. Yes, but the reference to Mary rejoicing about the Pharaoh is undoubtedly referring to Miriam. “Miriam” and “Mary” are the same name, just with slight variations. As I say, I’m not familiar with the song, but even if it’s mainly referring to Jesus’ mother, it’s invoking the story of the earlier Miriam/Mary in these lines. as I say, there’s no anachronism. You might also have a look at this about conflating the two Marys: > [@](#): > > Miriam and Mary[edit] > > In Arabic, both the names Mary and Miriam are called Maryam. Mary, the mother of Jesus, is the only female to have her name mentioned in the Quran. While speaking about Mary, the mother of Jesus, the Quran also calls her as the sister of Aaron. There is an Aaron in the Bible, namely Aaron the brother of Moses, who also had a sister Miriam. According to Muslim interpreters, this Aaron is different from the brother of Moses. Moses and Jesus were separated far apart in time, but it was a tradition to give people the names of prophets and pious persons who lived before them as mentioned in the following hadeeth: > Mughira b. Shu’ba reported: When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read" O sister of Harun" (i. e. Hadrat Maryam) in the Quran, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them. (Sheik Muslim – Adaaab Book) > **[Biblical and Quranic narratives | Miriam and Mary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_and_Quranic_narratives#Miriam_and_Mary)** > > In Arabic, both the names Mary and Miriam are called Maryam.\[citation needed\] Maryam, the mother of Isa and sister of Harun and Musa, is the only woman to have her name mentioned in the Quran; all other women are mentioned only by relations, and their names were given later by commentators. While referring to her as the mother of Jesus, the Quran also refers to her as the daughter of Amram and sister of Aaron (in verses 66:12 and 19:28–30), alluding to Miriam, the Biblical figure from the Torah.... ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/13 "2019-04-19T18:04:35Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Yes, but the reference to Mary rejoicing about the Pharaoh is undoubtedly referring to Miriam. “Miriam” and “Mary” are the same name, just with slight variations. As I say, I’m not familiar with the song, but even if it’s mainly referring to Jesus’ mother, it’s invoking the story of the earlier Miriam/Mary in these lines. as I say, there’s no anachronism. My understanding is that the song doesn’t refer to Miriam or Mary the Mother of Jesus. It refers to[Mary of Bethany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_of_Bethany), the sister of Lazarus. That’s also why various versions of the Negro spiritual includes the lines “[Martha, don’t you mourn](https://genius.com/Take-6-mary-lyrics)” or “[tell Martha not to mourn](http://web.lyon.edu/wolfcollection/songs/southernairesmary1257.html)” (i.e., Martha is the other sister). I would think “weeping” and Mary and Jesus is going to be readily identifiable with the Lazarus story. There’s some discussion [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Don%27t_You_Weep). But I think the idea is really as simply as reminding people (in the narrative, Mary the grieving sister) that God protects his people and punishes his enemies. Which makes some sense as a Negro spiritual, although it does seem a bit odd with reference to Lazarus. Edit: I don’t know why it would be an anachronism, though. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/14 "2019-04-19T18:25:11Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > My understanding is that the song doesn’t refer to Miriam or Mary the Mother of Jesus. It refers to[Mary of Bethany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_of_Bethany), the sister of Lazarus. That’s also why various versions of the Negro spiritual includes the lines “[Martha, don’t you mourn](https://genius.com/Take-6-mary-lyrics)” or “[tell Martha not to mourn](http://web.lyon.edu/wolfcollection/songs/southernairesmary1257.html)” (i.e., Martha is the other sister). I would think “weeping” and Mary and Jesus is going to be readily identifiable with the Lazarus story. > > There’s some discussion [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Don%27t_You_Weep). But I think the idea is really as simply as reminding people (in the narrative, Mary the grieving sister) that God protects his people and punishes his enemies. Which makes some sense as a Negro spiritual, although it does seem a bit odd with reference to Lazarus. > > Edit: I don’t know why it would be an anachronism, though. I haven’t had a chance to read the lyrics, but it still seems that, whether the bulk of the song is referring to a different Mary or not, the reference to Pharoah’s army being drowned in an unmistakable reference to Exodus, well before the time of Jesus. Why even bring that up, were it not due a sort of stream-of-consciousness thing because Mary and Miriam have the same name, and it’s referring to death? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/15 "2019-04-19T18:39:31Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Is _drownded_ an actual word? [Yes](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/drownded): it’s the past participle (as well as past tense) of _drownd_, an archaic variant of _drown_. “Drownd” and “drownded” are considered nonstandard forms in modern “standard English”, which uses the more familiar “drown” and “drowned”. But “drownded” is still common in various English dialects, not only African-American Vernacular English but, for example, [Surrey dialect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrey_dialect) in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/16 "2019-04-19T18:45:18Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I haven’t had a chance to read the lyrics, but it still seems that, whether the bulk of the song is referring to a different Mary or not, the reference to Pharoah’s army being drowned in an unmistakable reference to Exodus, well before the time of Jesus. Why even bring that up, were it not due a sort of stream-of-consciousness thing because Mary and Miriam have the same name, and it’s referring to death? You haven’t read the lyrics, but you know who the name refers to? The other explanations are correct. The song has nothing to do with Miriam the sister of Moses. The Mary referred to is Mary of Bethany, the sister of Martha, who is also referenced in the lyrics, and of Lazarus. The lyrics are indeed a kind of free association, but that doesn’t mean that the lyrics are referencing Miriam. Remember this is a slave spiritual. The singers weren’t experts on the etymology of biblical names. If they meant Miriam they would have said Miriam. There is no anachronism because the song is referencing different incidents, not just Exodus. Mary and Martha are included in the lyrics because they mourned their brother Lazarus. They are symbolic of the present day slaves mourning their lot. Exodus is referenced to remind the slaves that those who made the Israelites slaves were destroyed, so they shouldn’t despair. You simply can’t take slave spirituals literally. There is no reason to suppose the Mary the song was intended to be Miriam. In any case, why would Miriam be weeping? ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/17 "2019-04-19T19:07:45Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I haven’t had a chance to read the lyrics, but it still seems that, whether the bulk of the song is referring to a different Mary or not, the reference to Pharoah’s army being drowned in an unmistakable reference to Exodus, well before the time of Jesus. Why even bring that up, were it not due a sort of stream-of-consciousness thing because Mary and Miriam have the same name, and it’s referring to death? I don’t think there’s any question that the reference to Pharaoh’s army is a reference to Exodus. For obvious reasons, the singers of early Negro spirituals identified with the enslaved Israelites. I speculate that they found some comfort in the ending of that particular story. I don’t think it’s likely that the link comes from the similarity in name (although it’s possible); I think the link is between mourning your lot in life and the promise of divine deliverance. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/18 "2019-04-19T19:18:07Z")
[Here’s](https://www.shmoop.com/mary-dont-you-weep/meaning.html) much more on the song, and other spirituals. > [@](#): > > “Mary Don’t You Weep” offered both solace and hope to the slaves who sang it. The Biblical Mary at the center of the song was Mary of Bethany (not Mary of Nazareth, Jesus’ mother, or Mary Magdalene, his famous follower). According to the Book of John, when Mary met Jesus on his visit to the village of Bethany, she was distraught by the recent death of her brother. Jesus assured her that Lazarus would eventually find new life, but Mary’s weeping so moved Jesus that he too wept, and so he led her to Lazarus’, tomb where he raised the man immediately from the dead. > > When slaves sang “Mary Don’t You Weep,” they were reminded that God rewards his believers. The song stressed that resurrection was promised, but it also focused on the idea that God protected his people and punished their enemies. “Pharaoh’s army got drowned,” the lyrics repeated over and over again. According to Book of Exodus, the army of the powerful Egyptian ruler drowned in the Red Sea. They were hot pursuit of the children of Israel, God’s chosen people, as the latter attempted to flee to the Promised Land. They had been held as slaves for several centuries by the Egyptians, and with Moses’ help and leadership, they were finally escaping. If the Mary referenced in the song is Miriam, you have to explain why she is paired with Martha. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/19 "2019-04-19T19:30:03Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > [Here’s](https://www.shmoop.com/mary-dont-you-weep/meaning.html) much more on the song, and other spirituals. > > If the Mary referenced in the song is Miriam, you have to explain why she is paired with Martha. I haven’t had a chance to read the lyrics, so there’s not much point in discussing this. But I already did point out a possible reason above: > [@](#): > > I haven’t had a chance to read the lyrics, but it still seems that, whether the bulk of the song is referring to a different Mary or not, the reference to Pharoah’s army being drowned in an unmistakable reference to Exodus, well before the time of Jesus. Why even bring that up, were it not due a sort of stream-of-consciousness thing because Mary and Miriam have the same name, and it’s referring to death? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/20 "2019-04-19T19:45:44Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I haven’t had a chance to read the lyrics, so there’s not much point in discussing this. But I already did point out a possible reason above: I already pointed out that slaves were not linguistic experts, and would have no reason to link Miriam the sister of Moses with Mary the sister of Lazarus. Unless Miriam is referred to as Mary in a version of the Bible available to slaves they wouldn’t connect the two. And Miriam isn’t referred to as weeping; in Exodus she leads the rejoicing: > [@](#): > > Then Miriam the prophet, Aaron’s sister, took a timbrel in her hand, and all the women followed her, with timbrels and dancing. 21 Miriam sang to them: > > “Sing to the Lord, > for he is highly exalted. > Both horse and driver > he has hurled into the sea.” The fact that Mary is a form of the name of Moses’ sister is a coincidence and has no thematic link to the song. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769.md?page=2)