# Mary and Pharaoh **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 19, 2019, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769 "2019-04-19T13:42:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/21 "2019-04-19T20:06:59Z")
In addition to the usual potpourri of Biblical references regarding salvation, it’s possible that a song such as this was based on African stories with names and such substituted so as not to tick off the slave owners. I.e., Mary and Pharaoh were originally characters in folktales or mythology. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/22 "2019-04-19T20:44:44Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > In addition to the usual potpourri of Biblical references regarding salvation, it’s possible that a song such as this was based on African stories with names and such substituted so as not to tick off the slave owners. I.e., Mary and Pharaoh were originally characters in folktales or mythology. In this particular case, highly unlikely, since there are quite obvious links to Biblical stories. It’s an example of “hiding in plain sight.” Slave owners couldn’t really object to songs that were ostensibly about Bible stories. There are plenty of examples of slave narratives that are of African origin, such as the “B’rer Rabbit” stories, but I can’t imagine that this is one. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/23 "2019-04-19T21:02:40Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > I think you’re missing what’s going on. It’s not meant to be a history retelling. It’s weaving different Bible stories together to express a theme of hope and deliverance. Both a spiritual deliverance, but also a temporal deliverance from slavery. Mary is the Mary who listened to Christ and ‘chose the better portion,’ but she’s also the listener-presumably other slaves. Pharaohs army is indeed the army that chased Moses, but also the slave owners and their foremen. > > It also combines hope and deliverance messages from Noahs story, Lazarus (Mary’s dead brother and the only time we see Christ cry), and Paul’s imprisonment. All are redemption stories about how eventually God will save their souls and also their bodies from both spiritual and physical bondage. I am guessing that the Mary in the song is Mary the Mother of God, at the time of the crucifixion, but before the Resurrection. Now, in point of fact (it is Good Friday today). The words are saying, “Do not fear. God saved Moses and the Israelites, and he will save his Son.” By the way, this song was part of the eclectic repertoire of my totally atheistic but music-loving family when I was growing up, and it always mystified me, since I had no idea who this “pharaoh” was, what Mary they were talking to, and why someone’s army getting drowned would be a source of consolation. When I converted to Catholicism all was made clear. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/24 "2019-04-19T21:42:21Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > I am guessing that the Mary in the song is Mary the Mother of God, at the time of the crucifixion, but before the Resurrection. Now, in point of fact (it is Good Friday today). Then who is Martha? > [@](#): > > [Jesus said, Mary, (solo) > Oh, Mary, don’t you weep. (group) > Tell Martha not to mourn. (solo) > Tell Martha not to mourn. (group)](http://web.lyon.edu/wolfcollection/songs/southernairesmary1257.html) The different gospels include different people as being present at the Crucifixion, which include Mary, Jesus’s mother, Mary Magdalene, maybe another Mary, John the Apostle (maybe) and others, but none mention Martha as being present. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/25 "2019-04-19T22:09:13Z")
There are a lot of Marys, aren’t there? And over the centuries some of them got conflated. But you are right (that verse with Martha isn’t part of my childhood). If it is about Mary the sister of Martha and Lazarus, then that would place the song at the point where Jesus arrives at their house after Lazarus has been dead for three days. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/26 "2019-04-19T22:17:45Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > There are a lot of Marys, aren’t there? And over the centuries some of them got conflated. But you are right (that verse with Martha isn’t part of my childhood). If it is about Mary the sister of Martha and Lazarus, then that would place the song at the point where Jesus arrives at their house after Lazarus has been dead for three days. See post #18. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2019, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/27 "2019-04-20T01:57:37Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I haven’t had a chance to read the lyrics, but it still seems that, whether the bulk of the song is referring to a different Mary or not, the reference to Pharoah’s army being drowned in an unmistakable reference to Exodus, well before the time of Jesus. Why even bring that up, were it not due a sort of stream-of-consciousness thing because Mary and Miriam have the same name, and it’s referring to death? Because it is telling Mary to remember the story of the Exodus, and remember how God delivered them through bad times, so He’ll deliver her, too. The Mary/Miriam connection is too academic for the black spiritual writer of the time. The King James Version doesn’t uses different words, and they’ve learned about the Bible through being told biblical stories, not studying the text and original languages. I would not expect them to even know that Mary is the same name in Greek as the Hebrew for Miriam. It makes far more sense for it to be the same Mary throughout the song, and just referencing multiple Biblical stories to comfort her. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2019, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/28 "2019-04-20T02:04:07Z")
Bah. An extra “doesn’t” got caught in my post during editing. The second sentence of the second paragraph should read: “The King James Version uses different words…” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2019, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/29 "2019-04-20T02:09:39Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The Mary/Miriam connection is too academic for the black spiritual writer of the time. The King James Version doesn’t uses different words, and they’ve learned about the Bible through being told biblical stories, not studying the text and original languages. Also, the vast majority of slaves were illiterate. Teaching slaves to read or write was often illegal in slave states. For the most part, they would only know the Bible stories they had been taught orally. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2019, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/30 "2019-04-20T02:18:03Z")
The reference to Pharaoh & freed Hebrew slaves seems to closely fit plantation owners and slaves that wanted to be free. That doesn’t seem like a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/31 "2019-04-20T22:08:36Z")
I haven’t had the time to read the thread, but my guess is that the song references Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio and Martha Plimpton. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769/32 "2019-04-21T03:35:52Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > I haven’t had the time to read the thread, but my guess is that the song references Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio and Martha Plimpton. And Pharaoh is probably misheard – should be Pharell. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-and-pharaoh/832769.md?page=1)