# Mary Kay and Vili, May 20, 2005 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 21, 2005, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829 "2005-05-21T01:00:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/61 "2005-05-24T12:36:23Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > It’s just that. If people want to get you a gift, they don’t have to sit around scratching their heads. Good, because that would be a really strange gift. I wish someone could put the question to Mary Kay of what would she think about her sixth grade daughters having sexual relations with their male teachers. I know some have said there’s a difference between when this happens to boys and when it happens to girls but in my mind that distinction develops at some point well after when they’re just thirteen. At thirteen his gender was of no consequence… she raped a child. ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/62 "2005-05-24T14:20:15Z")
Flame me if you will, but I hope they are happy, finally. Yeah, she probably should not have had sex with the kid, and I feel bad for her kids from the previous marriage… but really… how many relationships have been started and lost since they first hooked up 10 years ago? It survived media attention, jail terms, condemnation and what-not. They have put up with more shit in their relationship than just about any couple has. And since he’s 22 now, I’m not buying the sexual predator angle. She’d have moved on to a new 12 year old by now. They were just two people in love (yes yes, he was 12 when it started, but looked 16) and stuck with it through adversity. I know I’m opening myself up to flaming for saying this, but I have thick skin 🙂 I’m going to regret saying this, I know… ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_Chuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/76d3ee/32.png) [@Patty\_Chuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_Chuck)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/63 "2005-05-24T15:09:22Z")
> [@lavenderlemon](#): > > Vili’s a high school dropout and a twenty-two year old with seven and eight year old daughters. > > That’s not “unaffected.” Yeah, alright, I get the point… but emotionally he seems to be happy enough (in the pictures), so his life can’t be all bad… else why would he still be with this woman? I doubt she’s forcing him to share her bed and I doubt she forced him to marry her. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/64 "2005-05-24T15:33:59Z")
Likely, what now makes Villi happy and what he finds desirable in a partner were fundamentally changed back when Mary Kay seduced him as a child. There’s no way that experience didn’t have some long-lasing effect on his psyche. Sure, he loves her now but would those same feelings ever have come forth had she not introduced him to sex back during his impressionable years? There’s no way I guess to know for sure and while she may have paid a price in the short term, in the long term it would appear she’s getting off scot free. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/65 "2005-05-24T17:19:16Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > I didn’t buy this kid was a blameless victim ten years ago and I still don’t buy it now. Sorry, I disagree. Just because the plumbing works doesn’t mean the house is ready for occupancy. There’s a lot more to a healthy relationship than just sex, and I think Villi is so screwed up he probably believes he’s in love with her. She, as the adult, should have known better, and even if he was the pursuer (which I doubt) she should never have allowed it to go this far. She destroyed her own marriage and AFAIK, hasn’t seen her children by her first husband in years. It was an inappropriate relationship from the get-go that turned into rape, not some star-crossed love story. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/66 "2005-05-24T18:49:28Z")
I realise that, for the purpose of writing laws and such, we need to have rather arbitrary age cut-offs for many offences. So, we let people vote at 18, but they can’t drink until they’re 21, and stuff like that. Similarly, we set an age of consent (16, or 17, or whatever), and an adult having sex with anyone below that arbitrarily-set age is considered a statutory rapist. What i want to know is, to what extent should we bend or make exceptions for these rules and categories in the legal system? For example, to those people who say that Vili had no capacity whatsoever to consent to this affair, i would ask: do you agree with the principle of charging a 13-year-old as an adult if he decides to shoot and kill someone? If he’s not old enough to understand what having sex means, is he old enough to understand what killing someone means? Or vice versa? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/67 "2005-05-24T19:14:45Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > What i want to know is, to what extent should we bend or make exceptions for these rules and categories in the legal system? Well, as I recalled, the last attorney general argued that jail time for cases such as this one and [Sonny Wisecarver aka the “The Woo-Woo Kid”](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093253/) was simply not right. (I cannot believe that film was the best cite I could find!) She prepaired a report on the issue, and was fired for it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/68 "2005-05-24T20:41:16Z")
Haven’t most people who knew Mary Kay said that she was always a little loopy, that there was something not quite right about her? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/69 "2005-05-24T21:13:04Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > I didn’t buy this kid was a blameless victim ten years ago and I still don’t buy it now. If a thirteen year old steals something or hits someone he deserves punishment and blame. But that’s not the case here. He was thirteen years old. He should have been writing comic books, climbing trees, playing video games and teasing his sister. He shouldn’t have been having sex with anyone – let alone his teacher. She stole his youth. That’s a crime and yes, he really is a blameless victim. > [@](#): > > It’s very disingenuous to keep equating statutory rape with forced rape as if the two were equally reprehensible acts of violent sexual control. One is only a crime because someone’s underage. It’s more distasteful because she was a teacher and truthfully, that’s the one part of this whole action I find unforgiveable. Rape is rape is rape. While there may not have been any violence involved here, there certainly were issues of sexual control. Whether someone is forced into consent or simply incapable of giving it because of age and sexual underdevelopment, it’s still completely wrong. > [@pessimisticgrace](#): > > Who cares what they do? They’re adults. The media cares. You can’t read a newspaper without finding out about it. > [@](#): > > I completely object to the suggestion that sleeping with an eager 13 year old boy deserves anywhere NEAR the prison term of dragging a child off the street and raping them while they kick and scream. They’re both crimes, but the latter is infinitely more repulsive and emotionally traumatic. She served her time. Are you suggesting anyone convicted of statutory rape should spend the rest of their life in prison? Because if that’s true, we better be ready to double the prison population. It depends on who’s sleeping with the thirteen year old. There’s a huge difference between his fifteen year old neighbor and his teacher. The former needs counseling and the later deserves a jail sentence. Why is it not repulsive to you when a teacher violates her student like that? No, she didn’t snatch him off the streets and force his penis into her vagina. Instead she – a person in a position of authority over him, a person entrusted by his parents to make sure he learned – she seduced him and had sex long before he should have truly been mentally and physically ready. She made him a father at fifteen and turned his life into public fodder. The whole thing makes me want to throw up. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/70 "2005-05-24T22:34:21Z")
> [@lavenderlemon](#): > > If a thirteen year old steals something or hits someone he deserves punishment and blame. > > But that’s not the case here. He was thirteen years old. He should have been writing comic books, climbing trees, playing video games and teasing his sister. He shouldn’t have been having sex with anyone – let alone his teacher. > > She stole his youth. That’s a crime and yes, he really is a blameless victim. Well, this begs the question that i asked back in post #66. Exactly how do we determine what an underage person is and is not responsible for? What level of agency or wilfulness or responsibility should we assign to them for various acts? Why should we consider them old enough for blame and responsibility when they steal something or commit an act of violence, but not when they engage in sexual relations? These are genuine questions. I don’t claim to have the answers. It just seems to me that the arbitrary age limits that the law sets on things like this are fraught with problematic consequences, and fail to take account of the huge variations in maturity and development among individuals, and the huge range of possible circumstances. > [@lavenderlemon](#): > > Rape is rape is rape. While there may not have been any violence involved here, there certainly were issues of sexual control. Whether someone is forced into consent or simply incapable of giving it because of age and sexual underdevelopment, it’s still completely wrong. You are correct that rape is rape, particularly in a legal sense. But the fact is that some rape involved explicit and violent coercion, whereas some does not. While they may both be abhorrent, there are gradations recognised both by the law, and by most people in our society. And again, while it is true that a 13-year-old is legally unable to give consent, this doesn’t address the question of whether the laws themselves are poorly constructed to take account of human diversity. > [@lavenderlemon](#): > > The media cares. You can’t read a newspaper without finding out about it. The media also spent thousands of hours on the runaway bride from Georgia. Doesn’t mean we have to care about it. > [@lavenderlemon](#): > > It depends on who’s sleeping with the thirteen year old. There’s a huge difference between his fifteen year old neighbor and his teacher. The former needs counseling and the later deserves a jail sentence. > > Why is it not repulsive to you when a teacher violates her student like that? No, she didn’t snatch him off the streets and force his penis into her vagina. Instead she – a person in a position of authority over him, a person entrusted by his parents to make sure he learned – she seduced him and had sex long before he should have truly been mentally and physically ready. She made him a father at fifteen and turned his life into public fodder. Well, as far as his mental readiness goes, that is certainly an open question. But you again fail to take into account that fact that there are probably some people who are emotionally equipped to have sex without any damaging effects before they reach the age of legal maturity, while there are others who aren’t mature enough even _after_ reaching legal age. Also, i don’t quite know what you mean when you say that she seduced him “long before he should have truly been…physically ready.” Either he was physically able to have sex, or he wasn’t. There is no “should” about his physical capacity for intercourse. Either he is physically capable, or he is not. This does not necessarily negate your arguments about his emotional maturity or the morality of the act; it’s just a silly thing to say. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/71 "2005-05-24T22:42:42Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Haven’t most people who knew Mary Kay said that she was always a little loopy, that there was something not quite right about her? **Guin** , you’ve described every sexually active person I’ve ever known who’s ever gotten a piece of questionable dick/pussy once and gone back for more. l **avenderlemon.** If rape is rape is rape, we wouldn’t bother to legally differentiate between statuatory rape and forced rape and sadomasochistic rape fantasies. That’s like saying filal love is patriotic love is puppy love or, if you prefer actions to emotions, phone sex is procreative sex is simulated sex for actors, or porn. Being seduced is not a crime. Nor is seducing someone is a crime. Nor is being strung out sexually by someone you really care for a crime – but I don’t believe she’s toying with his emotions. You cannot blame her for seduction and then turn right around claim actual rape, or presume that his experience with an attractive older woman who (I assume) intiated him into sex was a scarring, tramuatic experience, or that having sex stole his entire adolescence and having kids robbed him of his youth when he wasn’t even the primary caregiver. If you can conceive of a 20 year old who’s not mentally ready for sex, surely you can conceive of a 13 year old who just might be. **ivylass.** It may be preferable that the rest of the house his finished before using the plumbing, but speaking as a man, sometimes when you gotta go – you gotta go. Villi deserves some of the blame for what happened to him, too. Let’s not forget – he was caught having sex in the car after his teacher was released. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/72 "2005-05-24T22:54:43Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, this begs the question that i asked back in post #66. All very good points you have there. As I said a few posts ago, however, a politco attemted to answer your question, and was crucified for it. Here, I will do a quick google search on the topic. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joycelyn\_Elders](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joycelyn_Elders) Hmm, actually, it was her desire for teacher to address the matter of masturbation that got her fired. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/73 "2005-05-24T23:28:57Z")
Thanks, **Scott**. That’s an interesting case. But i’m actually interested in responses from people on this message board. Maybe i should start a GD thread on the issue, because it seems like good debate fodder. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/74 "2005-05-24T23:41:50Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But i’m actually interested in _responses from people on this message board._ Then what I am I? Chopped liver? But really, I think what you meant to say is "Opinions from people on this message board. 😛 My post was a responce, but it wasn’t an opinion. Well, I [searched](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?searchid=896914) the message borad for the words, “age of consent”. Here are a few of the results. > **[Sex at thirteen?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=313681)** > > Inspired by plnnr’s thread here, just so nobody mucks around and hijacks it anymore. What do you think of the situation? Parents, what would be your reaction–and why? > **[Q for Pros: When does age of sexual attraction become "abnormal"?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=308954)** > > I’m interested in professional/expert opinions if they can be had, but felt I had to post here rather than GQ, since there isn’t likely to be one agreed-upon answer. \[I hope this thread can stay civil and on-topic (and open) and not devolve as... > **[SCOTUS Finds Death Penalty for Those Under 18 Unconstitutional](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=304868)** > > According to the Washington Post, the SCOTUS has issued a ruling striking down State laws that allow for the execution of those under 18 years of age. The ruling is the result of a 5-4 split, with Justices Scalia, Thomas, O’Connor, and Chief Justice... ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/75 "2005-05-24T23:57:29Z")
The thing that bothers me most about this right now\* is the media coverage. Sure, this is absolutely perfect fodder for tabloid TV. But some of the shows are totally bending their premise to fit these two and their wedding into the program. When Entertainment Tonight was teasing some piece on it, I actually shouted at my television, “These people are NOT entertainers!” And their wedding should not be entertainment to anyone, except maybe to those they invited to attend in person. As usual, the various media venues start feeding on whatever the others are showing, and we end up with weeks of a single story. You’d think that one producer out there would realize that if the competition is getting 15% of the viewers with Mary Kay and Vili, 85% of them don’t want to watch anything about it–Maybe his show should seek those viewers by providing something else. \*I was bothered, years ago, about the crime. I was bothered, years ago, that Vili was continuing to be loyal to the teacher that betrayed his trust. I was bothered, years ago, that his parents didn’t seem to mind any of this, seeming to only be glad to get some grandchildren earlier than they’d expected. Now, years later, since there seems to be no change in either one of them, all I can hope for is that they’ll find their own twisted way to get on with life and that I’ll soon no longer have to hear about it so much. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/76 "2005-05-25T00:26:33Z")
Scott\_Plaid. Here’s a Should The Age Of Consent Be Lowered? where I basically said, yeah, for a select few. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/77 "2005-05-25T00:39:22Z")
I screwed up the coding somehow. Try this: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264249&highlight=emancipated+minor](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264249&highlight=emancipated+minor) ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/78 "2005-05-25T23:51:28Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, this begs the question that i asked back in post #66. > > Exactly how do we determine what an underage person is and is not responsible for? What level of agency or wilfulness or responsibility should we assign to them for various acts? Why should we consider them old enough for blame and responsibility when they steal something or commit an act of violence, but not when they engage in sexual relations? > > These are genuine questions. I don’t claim to have the answers. It just seems to me that the arbitrary age limits that the law sets on things like this are fraught with problematic consequences, and fail to take account of the huge variations in maturity and development among individuals, and the huge range of possible circumstances. My personal response is that I am opposed to the death penalty for minors. I also believe they should be treated differently when they committ crimes. I do not believe in life without parole for twelve year olds. Age limits are somewhat arbritrary but they do have a basis in fact. That’s why I would treat a teacher differently than the boy next door. > [@](#): > > You are correct that rape is rape, particularly in a legal sense. But the fact is that some rape involved explicit and violent coercion, whereas some does not. While they may both be abhorrent, there are gradations recognised both by the law, and by most people in our society. I never said otherwise. But while Le Tourneau did not use violent coercion she did rape indeed rape Vili. > [@](#): > > And again, while it is true that a 13-year-old is legally unable to give consent, this doesn’t address the question of whether the laws themselves are poorly constructed to take account of human diversity. So you would be in favor of some thirteen year olds having sex? Because that’s one stance that hasn’t a chance of becoming law. > [@](#): > > The media also spent thousands of hours on the runaway bride from Georgia. Doesn’t mean we have to care about it. Given some of the reactions of undeserved sympathy towards Le Tourneau on this thread I find myself caring very much about this case. > [@](#): > > Well, as far as his mental readiness goes, that is certainly an open question. But you again fail to take into account that fact that there are probably some people who are emotionally equipped to have sex without any damaging effects before they reach the age of legal maturity, while there are others who aren’t mature enough even _after_ reaching legal age. Cite? What percentage of thirteen year olds are ready for sex? > [@](#): > > Also, i don’t quite know what you mean when you say that she seduced him “long before he should have truly been…physically ready.” Either he was physically able to have sex, or he wasn’t. There is no “should” about his physical capacity for intercourse. Either he is physically capable, or he is not. This does not necessarily negate your arguments about his emotional maturity or the morality of the act; it’s just a silly thing to say. Sex is not just about one’s ability to achieve an erection or an organism. For instance an adolescent female’s risks of an adverse effect while from child bearing are higher than someone older. In a similar way there’s every evidence that adolescent brains aren’t fully developed until a person reaches his early twenties. That’s certainly a physical effect. My cite: > **[Babies Archives - FamilyWise](https://www.familywise.com/babies/)** > > Life. Parenting. Kids. So, no, that was not a silly thing to say. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/79 "2005-05-26T00:03:22Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > l **avenderlemon.** If rape is rape is rape, we wouldn’t bother to legally differentiate between statuatory rape and forced rape and sadomasochistic rape fantasies. That’s like saying filal love is patriotic love is puppy love or, if you prefer actions to emotions, phone sex is procreative sex is simulated sex for actors, or porn. It’s still bad. It’s wrong to have sex with a thirteen year old. Le Tourneau was put in prison and rightfully so. The only issue is the age of the person initiating the sexual encounter with the thirteen year old. > [@](#): > > Being seduced is not a crime. Nor is seducing someone is a crime. Nor is being strung out sexually by someone you really care for a crime – but I don’t believe she’s toying with his emotions. You cannot blame her for seduction and then turn right around claim actual rape, or presume that his experience with an attractive older woman who (I assume) intiated him into sex was a scarring, tramuatic experience, or that having sex stole his entire adolescence and having kids robbed him of his youth when he wasn’t even the primary caregiver. So it’s okay to seduce a twelve year old? > [@](#): > > If you can conceive of a 20 year old who’s not mentally ready for sex, surely you can conceive of a 13 year old who just might be. Cite? Incidentally I happen to the be the mother of a two year old. Anyone attempting to have sex with her eleven years from now will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of laws that I guarantee will still be in place. > [@](#): > > Villi deserves some of the blame for what happened to him, too. Let’s not forget – he was caught having sex in the car after his teacher was released. Um no he doesn’t anymore than a kid who follows a molester into a car because he promises her candy and ice cream. She was the one who initiated the entire affair and she the is one who solely deserves the blame. She was the fully developed adult and she should have behaved like one. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829/80 "2005-05-26T00:12:56Z")
> [@lavenderlemon](#): > > My personal response is that I am opposed to the death penalty for minors. I also believe they should be treated differently when they committ crimes. I do not believe in life without parole for twelve year olds. > > Age limits are somewhat arbritrary but they do have a basis in fact. That’s why I would treat a teacher differently than the boy next door. What do you mean they “have a basis in fact”? What they have is a legal and a societal basis; i’m not quite sure how that compares to having a “basis in fact,” and i don’t quite understand what you’re saying here. > [@lavenderlemon](#): > > I never said otherwise. But while Le Tourneau did not use violent coercion she did rape indeed rape Vili. True enough, as the law is now written, but it continues to beg the question of whether—legal questions aside—it is reasonable to believe that _some_ thirteen year olds might be capable of consenting. I’m not saying that they are; only that your continued appeal to mere legalism doesn’t actually address the issue very well. > [@lavenderlemon](#): > > So you would be in favor of some thirteen year olds having sex? Because that’s one stance that hasn’t a chance of becoming law. I’m not in favor of anything in particular. And whether or not it has a chance of becoming law is immaterial to the questions that i’m raising. > [@lavenderlemon](#): > > Given some of the reactions of undeserved sympathy towards Le Tourneau on this thread I find myself caring very much about this case. Bully for you. Given that they are _both_ consenting adults, i find myself caring about it not at all. > [@lavenderlemon](#): > > Cite? What percentage of thirteen year olds are ready for sex? Now you’re just being silly. The point i was making is that the arbitrary age cutoffs that we set in our legal system fail to take account of different levels of emotional development among different individuals. How do you judge whether someone is “ready for sex” anyway? Do you take their temperature? Ask them if they feel ready to have sex? Is there some magic psychological or physical change that occurs on the person’s sixteenth (or seventeenth, or eighteenth) birthday? Hell, the very fact that different states within the US set different ages of consent suggest that there is no hard and fast rule even within this country. > [@lavenderlemon](#): > > Sex is not just about one’s ability to achieve an erection or an organism. For instance an adolescent female’s risks of an adverse effect while from child bearing are higher than someone older. In case you hadn’t noticed, “having sex” and “child bearing” are not the same thing. > [@lavenderlemon](#): > > In a similar way there’s every evidence that adolescent brains aren’t fully developed until a person reaches his early twenties. That’s certainly a physical effect. > > My cite: > > [http://www.childwelfare.net/SJDC/braindevelopment.html](http://www.childwelfare.net/SJDC/braindevelopment.html) > > So, no, that was not a silly thing to say. Yes it was. Nothing in your citation demonstrates that a 13 year old is _physically_ incapable of having sex. Also, your link says that “The brain’s maturation process continues through adolescence and is not complete until the early 20’s.” Do you advocate raising the age of consent to 23, to take account of your own concern about thisz issue? Would you call for neuroimaging tests to be performed on all Americans so we can determine whether or not their brain is dceveloped enough for you to allow them to have sex? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-kay-and-vili-may-20-2005/304829.md?page=5)