# Mary Mapes Fired Over Fake Bush Letters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 10, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086 "2005-01-10T19:07:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/1 "2005-01-10T19:07:50Z")
Good. CBS has fired Mary Mapes, Dan Rather’s producer, who was in large measure responsible for the disgraceful airing of the story about Bush’s GUard fitness that was based on documents that were forgeries. About damn time. I do note that the CBS internal investigation concluded that there was no political bias behind the report; it was, CBS found, simply a matter of “competitive pressures” and a “zealous belief in the truth of the segment” that caused Mapes to ignore basic journalistic standards and falsely claim that an expert had authenticated the documents. It’s unclear to me what, if not political belief, contributed so greatly to her “zealous belief,” but I’ll settle for this result. I had earlier faulted CBS for dragging their feet on this investigation, and frankly had suspected that nothing would come of it. I salute CBS for defying my mordant expectation and taking action. CBD also asked Senior Vice President Betsy West, “60 Minutes Wednesday” Executive Producer Josh Howard; and Howard’s deputy, Senior Broadcast Producer Mary Murphy to resign. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/2 "2005-01-10T19:11:34Z")
And why hasn’t Rather been fired yet? He’s in charge of CBS News. Maybe not in title, but try crossing The Dan and see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/3 "2005-01-10T19:13:46Z")
Yes, this is the right thing to happen to those people. Now, why are you more torqued up about the bogus documents report than about their topic, Bush’s Guard performance? Last I heard, none of the CBS employees was running for President. Did you let yourself get redirected from the real issue? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/4 "2005-01-10T19:16:37Z")
Lost in all of this is the fact that the story was true and such documents did exist. Rove did a brilliant job planting those phony pages and stealing the real ones. Bush is still a deserter. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/5 "2005-01-10T19:28:58Z")
Yes, Bush is still a deserter. Another concern here … the liberal reporters and their staffs lose their jobs wholesale for being gulled when they should not have, but conservative reporters tell lies wholesale (Fox “News” anyone?) and conservative reporters even help Bush administration figures commit treason (Robert Novak in the Valerie Plame affair). And they DON’T get fired, no, they get PROMOTED if anything. It looks to me as if the consequences for deceit and treachery are so one-sided that conservatives can eventually take over journalism just because THEY don’t get fired for grotesquely bad reporting, whereas liberals do. And how IS that Plame investigation coming along? I heard the Bush Admin. had vowed to get right to the bottom of things … ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/6 "2005-01-10T19:39:28Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Lost in all of this is the fact that the story was true and such documents did exist. Rove did a brilliant job planting those phony pages and stealing the real ones. > > Bush is still a deserter. Careful, **Dio** …here, let me straighten your tinfoil hat for you. The documents were fake. The CBS crew let their bias for Kerry override their journalistic judgement. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/7 "2005-01-10T19:41:00Z")
And what does that have to do with Bush’s qualifications to be Commander in Chief? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/8 "2005-01-10T19:43:55Z")
Condolleeza: “I don’t think anyone could have predicted that these people would slam planes into the World Trade Center.” On March 30, 11 days into the war, Rumsfeld said in an ABC News interview when asked about WMDs: **"We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."** A few “bad apples” and a lack of proper supervision – not a failure in military training, doctrine or policy – were responsible for detainee abuses in Afghanistan and Iraq, senior Army leaders told a Senate committee today. ---
**Author:** ![35340](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/8baadc/32.png) [@35340](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/35340)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/9 "2005-01-10T19:49:54Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > And why hasn’t Rather been fired yet? > > He’s in charge of CBS News. Maybe not in title, but try crossing The Dan and see what happens. He’s resigned effective next april. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/10 "2005-01-10T19:55:07Z")
You got the right thread **Squink**? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/11 "2005-01-10T20:01:52Z")
I see that CBS implies that Dan Rather’s stepping down was the result of this too, which I don’t believe they’ve done before. > [@](#): > > Asked to resign were Senior Vice President Betsy West, who supervised CBS News primetime programs; 60 Minutes Wednesday Executive Producer Josh Howard; and Howard’s deputy, Senior Broadcast Producer Mary Murphy. The producer of the piece, Mary Mapes, was terminated. > > The correspondent on the story, CBS News anchor Dan Rather, is stepping down as anchor of The CBS Evening News but staying at CBS. > > “We deeply regret the disservice this flawed 60 Minutes Wednesday report did to the American public, which has a right to count on CBS News for fairness and accuracy,” said CBS President Leslie Moonves. From [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/10/national/main665727.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/10/national/main665727.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![cj\_finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@cj\_finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cj_finn)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/12 "2005-01-10T20:03:30Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Careful, **Dio** …here, let me straighten your tinfoil hat for you. > > The documents were fake. The CBS crew let their bias for Kerry override their journalistic judgement. Ivy: You may want to review the interview with the secretary that worked for Bush’s boss. She indicated that the documents in question were not original but that there did once exist documents that were real that said the same thing. That the allegations based on the document were true, even where the documents themselves were proven to be fakes, is what Dio is referring to. CBS took a shortcut in putting the faked documents out there as incontrovertible proof and that is where their judgement when wrong. They had “good” evidence in hand, no need to look further (right). And as for Elvis, that Bush deserted doesn’t modify his qualifications to be CIC whatsoever. Whether he is qualified is an entirely different question. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/13 "2005-01-10T20:07:04Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Lost in all of this is the fact that the story was true and such documents did exist. Rove did a brilliant job planting those phony pages and stealing the real ones. Suuuuure, Karl Rove planted the phony letters and stole the real ones. Then Karl put on his Mission Impossible-type Mary Mapes mask, penetrated CBS News headquarters, and ordered staff to forget about expert confirmation, saying that “she” had done it already. With the real Mapes given a quick dose of chloral hydrate and knocked out in the janitor’s closet, Rove worked quickly to assure that the CBS report would go out as planned. Then, just as the knockout drops were wearing off, he slipped away into the night, leaving the real Mapes befuddled and ready to take the blame. It must be exciting to live in your head, **Diogenes** , and never need to pay for a movie ticket because the show unfurling inside your skull is much more exciting than anything Hollywood could put out there. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/14 "2005-01-10T20:10:33Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > You got the right thread **Squink**? 😛 It’s all about organizations and people taking responsibility for their words and deeds **World Eater** 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/15 "2005-01-10T20:12:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I do note that the **CBS internal investigation** concluded that there was no political bias behind the report; it was, **CBS found** , simply a matter of “competitive pressures” and a “zealous belief in the truth of the segment” that caused Mapes to ignore basic journalistic standards and falsely claim that an expert had authenticated the documents. It’s unclear to me what, if not political belief, contributed so greatly to her “zealous belief,” but I’ll settle for this result. > > I had earlier faulted **CBS** for dragging their feet on **this investigation** , and frankly had suspected that nothing would come of it. I salute **CBS** for defying my mordant expectation and taking action. (emphasis added) The investigation was not conducted by CBS. > [@CNN](#): > > The panel, which was led by former Attorney General Richard Thornburgh and former Associated Press President Louis Boccardi, added that – despite accusations of political bias against CBS – “[the panel] cannot conclude that a political agenda at ‘60 Minutes Wednesday’ drove either the timing of the airing of the segment or its content.” > > [http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/TV/01/10/cbs.guard/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/TV/01/10/cbs.guard/index.html) Thornburgh, by the way, is a Republican, which sorta undercuts Bricker’s sneering at the report’s conclusion that the story was not motivated by political bias. The report itself – which, lest there be any confusion, is helpfully titled "Report of the Independent Review Panel, Dick Thornburgh and Louis D. Broccardi – is available online [here](http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/complete_report/CBS_Report.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/16 "2005-01-10T20:18:15Z")
> [@cj finn](#): > > And as for Elvis, that Bush deserted doesn’t modify his qualifications to be CIC whatsoever. Whether he is qualified is an entirely different question. One might well think that his own service either enhances or detracts from his ability to lead. We did hear a lot of that not so long ago when there was another President who’d chosen to stay home, didn’t we? The point was that the more partisan of his supporters allowed the CBS flap to let them overlook Bush’s actual background entirely - they were quite happy to get that large, steaming turd off their dinner tables by any means available. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/17 "2005-01-10T20:47:19Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > (emphasis added) > > The investigation was not conducted by CBS. Thornburgh, by the way, is a Republican, which sorta undercuts Bricker’s sneering at the report’s conclusion that the story was not motivated by political bias. > > The report itself – which, lest there be any confusion, is helpfully titled "Report of the Independent Review Panel, Dick Thornburgh and Louis D. Broccardi – is available online [here](http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/complete_report/CBS_Report.pdf). Correction noted. CBS obviously authorized the investigation, but it was an independent investigation. This does lend a bit more credibility to the conclusion that there was no overt political angle, and I’m now prepared to accept that political bias was, if a factor at all, only an indirect one… that is, Mapes was no Bush fan, and that caused her to be predisposed to believe the letters. But that’s a far cry from what I was first picturing – an active desire to use her office to assist the Kerry campaign and discredit the Bush campaign. That view is unsupported by any evidence at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/18 "2005-01-10T20:57:17Z")
However… I think it’s worthwhile to quote from the report’s summary of CBS’s “egregious faults” during the period AFTER they aired the story: > [@](#): > > 1. The strident defense of the September 8 Segment by CBS News without adequately probing whether any of the questions raised had merit; > > 2. Allowing many of the same individuals who produced and vetted the by-then controversial September 8 Segment to also produce the follow-up news reports defending the Segment; > > 3. The inaccurate press statements issued by CBS News after the broadcast of the > Segment that the source of the documents was “unimpeachable” and that experts had vouched for their authenticity; > > 4. The misleading stories defending the Segment that aired on the CBS Evening News after September 8 despite strong and multiple indications of serious flaws; > > 5. The efforts by 60 Minutes Wednesday to find additional document examiners who would vouch for the authenticity of the documents instead of identifying the best examiners available regardless of whether they would support this position; and > > 6. Preparing news stories that sought to support the Segment, instead of providing accurate and balanced coverage of a raging controversy. It’s pretty damning. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/19 "2005-01-10T20:59:17Z")
CBS had the professionalism to hire an independent panel review the case. They indeed appeared to have lack of due diligence in authenticating the memos. But the _content_ of the memos is true. Bush failed to take his physical. We don’t know for sure why he failed to do so, but there is strong evidence he was a cocaine user at the time. He did use influence to get into the National Guard. And he failed to complete his obligation. The conclusion was right, however the memos could not be proven authentic. Compare CBS’ actions to that of FOX (fair and balanced). There are documents showing that FOX journalists are instructed to spin the news to Bush’s advantage. Compare it the the ethics of the Bush White House in paying a columnist to say nice things about No Child Left Behind. Compare CBS to Sinclair Broadcasting and their smear campaign against John Kerry. It is clear where fairness and professionalism abound and where the righties have turned their media outlets into an American version of Pravda. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/20 "2005-01-10T21:17:06Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > One might well think that his own service either enhances or detracts from his ability to lead. We did hear a lot of that not so long ago when there was another President who’d chosen to stay home, didn’t we? You know, I have never voted for anyone named Bush, and I did vote for Clinton and like him quite a bit, but I wouldn’t equate dodging the draft by running off to Europe to get stoned with avoiding Vietnam service by serving honorably in the Air National Guard, but that’s probably because I’m not trying to grind a partisan political act. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > CBS had the professionalism to hire an independent panel review the case. They indeed appeared to have lack of due diligence in authenticating the memos. But the _content_ of the memos is true. Bush failed to take his physical. We don’t know for sure why he failed to do so, but there is strong evidence he was a cocaine user at the time. He did use influence to get into the National Guard. And he failed to complete his obligation. The conclusion was right, however the memos could not be proven authentic. The [Things You Believe to be True Even Though You Cannot Prove Them](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=295591) thread is in IMHO. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086.md?page=2)