# Mary Mapes Fired Over Fake Bush Letters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 10, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086 "2005-01-10T19:07:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/21 "2005-01-10T21:20:17Z")
[Snagglepuss] Axe, even. [/Snagglepuss] ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/22 "2005-01-10T21:23:05Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Compare CBS’ actions to that of FOX (fair and balanced). There are documents showing that FOX journalists are instructed to spin the news to Bush’s advantage. Compare it the the ethics of the Bush White House in paying a columnist to say nice things about No Child Left Behind. Compare CBS to Sinclair Broadcasting and their smear campaign against John Kerry. It is clear where fairness and professionalism abound and where the righties have turned their media outlets into an American version of Pravda. Oh, come on – we all know slimy underhanded behavior is perfectly acceptable when conservatives do 'em. It’s one of those “moral values” or something… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/23 "2005-01-10T21:24:24Z")
You _wouldn’t_ equate running off to Europe to get stoned with running off to Texas to get drunk? No, they’re not equatable - there’s no basis for believing Clinton got stoned at all, much less habitually. There’s much more factual basis for believing Bush did cocaine as well. But I’m grinding an axe, huh? > [@Bricker](#): > > It’s pretty damning. To CBS, but again, none of them were running for President. How does this retroactively absolve Bush of his irresponsibility thirty years ago? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/24 "2005-01-10T21:25:42Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > CBS had the professionalism to hire an independent panel review the case. They indeed appeared to have lack of due diligence in authenticating the memos. But the _content_ of the memos is true. Bush failed to take his physical. We don’t know for sure why he failed to do so, but there is strong evidence he was a cocaine user at the time. He did use influence to get into the National Guard. And he failed to complete his obligation. The conclusion was right, however the memos could not be proven authentic. What evidence are you relying on to form those conclusions? > [@](#): > > Compare CBS’ actions to that of FOX (fair and balanced). There are documents showing that FOX journalists are instructed to spin the news to Bush’s advantage. Compare it the the ethics of the Bush White House in paying a columnist to say nice things about No Child Left Behind. Compare CBS to Sinclair Broadcasting and their smear campaign against John Kerry. It is clear where fairness and professionalism abound and where the righties have turned their media outlets into an American version of Pravda. I have already agreed, elsewhere, that the Armstrong NCLB fiasco was a serious breach of ethics. Apart from that - what are these documents that show Fox journalists are instructed to spin the news to Bush’s advantage? And what smear campaign did SInclair mount against Kerry, precisely? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/25 "2005-01-10T21:30:27Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > To CBS, but again, none of them were running for President. How does this retroactively absolve Bush of his irresponsibility thirty years ago? What irresponsibility is that, precisely? Cocaine use? I deny it. Desertion? I deny it. Relying on family connections to get into the Texas ANG instead of being sent to Vietnam? Likely true. I don’t agree it’s irresponsible, although unquestionably Kerry’s service is much more consistent with a heroic man than Bush’s was. But lack of heroism does not equal irresponsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/26 "2005-01-10T21:37:40Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > there’s no basis for believing Clinton got stoned at all, much less habitually. Because his answer “I didn’t inhale” was so convincing, right? Now where was it that I saw people arguing that someone had to be guilty of something because his answers to questions on the topic (Bush’s cocaine use, in this case)were less than straightforward… Oh, that’s right, it was [right here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5693394&postcount=161) where a poster called “ElvisL1ves” states that > [@](#): > > The short version: There is only one reasonable interpretation of Bush’s non-answer and his staff’s evasiveness._(The “reasonable interpretation” is Bush used cocaine)_ :dubious: :dubious: :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/27 "2005-01-10T21:38:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > there’s no basis for believing Clinton got stoned at all, much less habitually. Because his answer “I didn’t inhale” was so convincing, right? Now where was it that I saw people arguing that someone had to be guilty of something because his answers to questions on the topic (Bush’s cocaine use, in this case)were less than straightforward… Oh, that’s right, it was [right here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5693394&postcount=161) where a poster called “ElvisL1ves” states that > [@](#): > > The short version: There is only one reasonable interpretation of Bush’s non-answer and his staff’s evasiveness._(The “reasonable interpretation” is Bush used cocaine)-the part in parenthesies is an explanation of what was said earlier in the same post and thread, my words-Weirddave_ :dubious: :dubious: :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/28 "2005-01-10T21:43:19Z")
Actually, I don’t see on what basis “I didn’t inhale” is immediately seized upon as a blatant lie. While Mr. Clinton did show a willingness to lie under oath about another matter, I don’t agree that we may extrapolate that any statement he makes was a lie. There’s nothing inherently incredible about someone trying pot but not inhaling. What about this statement is so blatantly false? Educate me, because I think Mr. Clinton got a bum rap on this point. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/29 "2005-01-10T21:54:48Z")
**ElvisL1ves** wrote > [@](#): > > To CBS, but again, none of them were running for President. So, as long as you’re not running for President, it’s ok to lie and slander? So, I’m curious. In your obviously esteemed opinion, what other ethical breaches are reasonable and appropriate for someone not running for President? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/30 "2005-01-10T21:56:44Z")
> [@cj finn](#): > > You may want to review the interview with the secretary that worked for Bush’s boss. She indicated that the documents in question were not original but that there did once exist documents that were real that said the same thing. > That the allegations based on the document were true, even where the documents themselves were proven to be fakes, is what Dio is referring to. You may want to review Dio’s post as he says the documents did exist and that Rove stole them, substituting fake ones in there place. You also might want to link us to that interview. My recollection is that the secretary said the Docs did not exist, although she said the fake ones were consistent with what her boss as thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/31 "2005-01-10T22:15:11Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > You may want to review Dio’s post as he says the documents did exist and that Rove stole them, substituting fake ones in there place. > > You also might want to link us to that interview. My recollection is that the secretary said the Docs did not exist, although she said the fake ones were consistent with what her boss as thinking. No, she said the docs they showed her had the same content as the ones that she typed but that they weren’t the exact pages. The Rove think is just my own well-founded paranoia. ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/32 "2005-01-10T22:26:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > \Then Karl put on his Mission Impossible-type Mary Mapes mask, penetrated CBS News headquarters, and ordered staff to forget about expert confirmation, \ about having the word “penetrated” mentioned in the same sentence with Karl Rove? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/33 "2005-01-10T22:34:34Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > No, she said the docs they showed her had the same content as the ones that she typed but that they weren’t the exact pages. But she only said that, she told the panel, because CBS assured her the content was accurate. > [@](#): > > The Panel spoke with Knox on two occasions, and she stated that she did not have any personal knowledge about the content of any of the Killian documents, aside from the fact that she knew Lieutenant Bush had sought to transfer to Alabama so that he could run a political campaign. **She informed the Panel that she answered Rather’s questions on the assumption that the content was accurate**. She made clear in her Panel interviews that she did not have any personal knowledge about the thrust or content of the documents. > [@](#): > > The Rove think is just my own well-founded paranoia. Two words too many in that sentence. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/34 "2005-01-10T22:55:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What evidence are you relying on to form those conclusions? The innocent explanation for Bush refusing to take his physical would be…??? We all knew about Kitty Kelley’s book. Since truth is a defense against libel, don’t look for her to get sued. [One of many cites](http://www.washingtondispatch.com/spectrum/archives/000551.html) > [@](#): > > The book alleges that while Bush served in National Guard he “liked to sneak out back for a joint or into the bathroom for a line of cocaine.” It also alleges from a source related to the president that “Bush did coke at Camp David when his father was President, and not just once either.” > [@](#): > > Rumors of heavy cocaine abuse by Bush have been floating around for many years. The most pointed and public work was released by James Hatfield in his book, Fortunate Son. The book details an alleged 1972 drug conviction by Bush that was supposedly later removed from the record. In July of 2001, Hatfield was found dead in an Arkansas hotel room from a drug overdose. Since Hatfield’s death, the work has been somewhat discredited by the author’s own shady past. > [@](#): > > During the 2000 race, Bush’s team quelled the allegations by stating that Bush had not used illegal drugs in the past 25 years. Why didn’t Bush say he _nerver_ did coke? And there are signs that his body is paying the price for his indiscretions. [From this cite](http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/10/con04439.html) > [@](#): > > Previously, a handful of professional analysts had publicly speculated in print that such behavior might be a symptom of dry drunk syndrome and that the President’s past alcohol and/or drug abuse might be affecting his health. Along those lines, some doctors have specifically noted that spider lesions, like ones that have been removed from the President’s face, can be evidence of liver problems. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/35 "2005-01-10T23:02:24Z")
I did a little digging, and the news stories at the time reportd that Knox claims there were memos ordering Bush to report for his physical, but I can’t find where she says real memos supported the other significant claim of the “fake docs”-- that her boss was getting pressure from above to give Bush preferential treatment. I’ll have to read the latest report to see how Bricker’s quote fits in context. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/36 "2005-01-10T23:40:11Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > So, as long as you’re not running for President, it’s ok to lie and slander? You’re not getting it, are you? This came up during, and because of, a presidential campaign in which the youthful histories of the candidates was quite central. The news story allowed the Bush partisans to deflect attention from a person who has, and has used, the authority to send people to die. Some, like you of course, were happy to be relieved of the responsibility of considering that uncomfortable subject so you could engage in some good old liberalmedia bashing. Do you see that now? **Weirddave** , another who can’t make himself face it, has spouted this: > [@](#): > > Because his answer “I didn’t inhale” was so convincing, right? Now where was it that I saw people arguing that someone had to be guilty of something because his answers to questions on the topic (Bush’s cocaine use, in this case)were less than straightforward. When did Clinton ever get asked a follow-up question about his marijuana use? What did he answer? As a devoted dittohead, surely you must know. :wally Note in passing that he did give an answer to the drug question. You naturally assume that it’s a lie, but riddle us this: Wouldn’t a better lie have been No? I’ll help you out: No, because there were other people who could come forward to say differently. Now change the names and see where you get. :wally > [@Bricker](#): > > What irresponsibility is that, precisely? Cocaine use? I deny it. Desertion? I deny it. If you \*like \* looking gullible, that’s your privilege. If you don’t want me helping you avoid that, I won’t. :wally ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/37 "2005-01-11T00:52:40Z")
**ElvisL1ves** wrote > [@](#): > > You’re not getting it, are you? This came up during, and because of, a presidential campaign in which the youthful histories of the candidates was quite central. The news story allowed the Bush partisans to deflect attention from a person who has, and has used, the authority to send people to die. No, I don’t think you’re getting it. The only attempted deflection going on here is your own. Members of CBS News – an organization of some size and stature, who’s only job depends on and requires trust and honesty – lied, cheated and slandered with the express purpose of influencing a Presidential election. And you’re trying to change the subject to talk about one of the candidates in that race. What you’re doing is on par with saying “Who cares about Watergate? You’re just trying to change the subject from how rotten this McGovern character is.” ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/38 "2005-01-11T01:50:09Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > We all knew about Kitty Kelley’s book. Since truth is a defense against libel, don’t look for her to get sued. > > [One of many cites](http://www.washingtondispatch.com/spectrum/archives/000551.html) > > Why didn’t Bush say he _nerver_ did coke? And there are signs that his body is paying the price for his indiscretions. > > [From this cite](http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/10/con04439.html) So your 2 cites are to Kitty Kelley, and an anonymous reader contribution on Buzz Flash that theorizes that Bush avoided having a physical exam because his body is falling apart from rampant drug use? [snicker, snicker] You might be interested to know that Kitty Kelley’s source for the allegations that Bush used illegal drugs at Camp David [has denied that she made any such allegations](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6706-2004Sep8.html?nav=rss_politics): > [@Washington Post](#): > > President Bush’s former sister-in-law denied yesterday that she had given author Kitty Kelley any information about allegations of past drug use by Bush. > > Sharon Bush is quoted in Kelley’s forthcoming book about the Bush family as making one of the allegations, and Kelley’s editor said in an interview Tuesday that she had provided “confirmation” for the information. And there’s the small matter that Bush [took a physical exam on Dec. 11, 2004, and he was declared “fit for duty.”](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/12/11/bush.physical.ap/) Please, please don’t stake your reputation on such silly allegations. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/39 "2005-01-11T02:05:42Z")
The White House thugs got to Sharon Bush. I’m sure her original conversation with Kitty is on tape or she took scrupulous notes. She may recant now, but why should we believe her? Bush “fit for duty?” Ha! The dude wears a heart device (the bulge in the debate) and is a dry drunk. They obviously made a major adjustment in his meds between debates. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/40 "2005-01-11T03:00:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **Weirddave** , another who can’t make himself face it, has spouted this: > > > [@](#): > > > > Because his answer “I didn’t inhale” was so convincing, right? Now where was it that I saw people arguing that someone had to be guilty of something because his answers to questions on the topic (Bush’s cocaine use, in this case)were less than straightforward. > > When did Clinton ever get asked a follow-up question about his marijuana use? What did he answer? As a devoted dittohead, surely you must know. :wally > > Note in passing that he did give an answer to the drug question. You naturally assume that it’s a lie, but riddle us this: Wouldn’t a better lie have been No? I’ll help you out: No, because there were other people who could come forward to say differently. Now change the names and see where you get. :wally > > If you \*like \* looking gullible, that’s your privilege. If you don’t want me helping you avoid that, I won’t. :wally Wait, I’m a dittohead? Shouldn’t I listen to Rush then (I can’t stand the man) or at least vote Republican?(I haven’t done that either, at least not on anything other than the local level.) You keep pulling shit out of your ass about me to avoid the clear evidence that I’ve presented that you continually apply different standards to politicians depending on weather you like them or not. To reiterate: When Clinton predicates and uses technical lawyer speak to avoid a question about his possible youthful drug use, you dismiss it as inconsequential, apparently reasoning that if he wanted to lie he would have just said “no”, but when Bush predicates and uses technical lawyer speak to avoid a question about his possible youthful drug use, you scream “He didn’t deny it! That’s proof he’s a coke head!” Through it all you absolutely refuse to recognize the clear contradictions in your stance, and somehow think that the Wally smilie is some kind of coherent argument. You’re an idiot, and a dishonest one at that. The sad thing is that you’re probably lying to yourself about this as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086.md?page=3)