# Mary Mapes Fired Over Fake Bush Letters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 10, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086 "2005-01-10T19:07:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/121 "2005-01-13T18:48:31Z")
That last bit should read, "It could just as easily **have** gone the other way. " ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/122 "2005-01-13T18:54:26Z")
I asked ElvisL1ves for a specific example of Fox News lying. He can’t even think of one such example! Ha! Ha! Ha! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/123 "2005-01-13T19:00:29Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > By a few thousand votes in Ohio. It could just as easily gone the other way. By three million votes nationwide, if we’re counting noses. It’s true that had a hundred thousand votes gone the other way in Ohio, we’d have a Kerry presidency coming up. But that still would have been a majority of voters favoring Bush – irrelevant for the purposes of determining the Presidency; relevant for the purposes of determining a moderate view. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/124 "2005-01-13T19:10:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I asked ElvisL1ves for a specific example of Fox News lying. > > He can’t even think of one such example! > > Ha! Ha! Ha! Depends if we’re talking about the newscasters (slanted, but accurate) or the commentators like [Sean Hannity](http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20020826.html) or [Bill O’Reilly](http://overspun.com/oreilly/) (lies, lies, and more lies). > [@](#): > > By three million votes nationwide, if we’re counting noses. It’s true that had a hundred thousand votes gone the other way in Ohio, we’d have a Kerry presidency coming up. But that still would have been a majority of voters favoring Bush – irrelevant for the purposes of determining the Presidency; relevant for the purposes of determining a moderate view. I suppose the definition of “moderate” depends on which segment of the spectrum you stand. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/125 "2005-01-13T19:21:04Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Depends if we’re talking about the newscasters (slanted, but accurate) or the commentators like [Sean Hannity](http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20020826.html) or [Bill O’Reilly](http://overspun.com/oreilly/) (lies, lies, and more lies). Already addressed. We’re talking about news, not the commentators. Dan Rather doesn’t provide commentary - he purports to deliver the news. Bill O’Reilly offers up a bit of news and shamelessly segues into his opnion of it, or a suggestion as to what inference the audience should draw. His show is not held out as a neutral news source. Dan Rather’s is. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/126 "2005-01-13T19:23:31Z")
In fact, now that I think about it, O’Reilly is almost definitionally a liar, since he advertises his show as a “no-spin” zone, yet by providing commentary of any stripe, he is putting spin on a story. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/127 "2005-01-13T19:28:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Already addressed. We’re talking about news, not the commentators. Dan Rather doesn’t provide commentary - he purports to deliver the news. Bill O’Reilly offers up a bit of news and shamelessly segues into his opnion of it, or a suggestion as to what inference the audience should draw. His show is not held out as a neutral news source. > > Dan Rather’s is. And Dan is stepping down and the non-GOPers have acknowledged that he did wrong. now that we have had your views on misinformation that led to a flawed broadcast, you have yet to give us your considered opinion on misinformation that has killed 12,000 US soldiers and many times that number of Iraqi civilians. since you wanted the mea culpas of thew Dems, let’s hear yours about the absence of WMDs, the pretext of the war Bush launched. Thousands of people dead for a lie. Don’t you think Bush should resign for that? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/128 "2005-01-13T19:45:49Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And Dan is stepping down and the non-GOPers have acknowledged that he did wrong. now that we have had your views on misinformation that led to a flawed broadcast, you have yet to give us your considered opinion on misinformation that has killed 12,000 US soldiers and many times that number of Iraqi civilians. > since you wanted the mea culpas of thew Dems, let’s hear yours about the absence of WMDs, the pretext of the war Bush launched. > > Thousands of people dead for a lie. Don’t you think Bush should resign for that? No. Bush did not lie. He reasonably relied on sources that turned out to be wrong – sources that others in the GOP AND THE DEMOCRATS also relied upon. Same is true for Rather. He reasonably relied on sources that others also relied up. I never called for Rather’s head. Mary Mapes, on the other hand, KNEW she was lying when she described the provenance of her documents. For that, she quite properly loses her job. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/129 "2005-01-13T19:52:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > Bush did not lie. He reasonably relied on sources that turned out to be wrong – sources that others in the GOP AND THE DEMOCRATS also relied upon. > > Same is true for Rather. He reasonably relied on sources that others also relied up. I never called for Rather’s head. Mary Mapes, on the other hand, KNEW she was lying when she described the provenance of her documents. For that, she quite properly loses her job. But Bush DID lie. He knew the Niger yellowcake story was complete and utter bullshit and still he used it as a justification for war. His intel was almost laughably shoddy and he went with it, said he KNEW Saddam had WMDs. You wonder why people yell “Bushlied! Bushlied! Bushlied!” at you? It’s because you exhibit all the signs of deafness. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/130 "2005-01-13T19:55:47Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And Dan is stepping down and the non-GOPers have acknowledged that he did wrong. now that we have had your views on misinformation that led to a flawed broadcast, you have yet to give us your considered opinion on misinformation that has killed 12,000 US soldiers and many times that number of Iraqi civilians. > since you wanted the mea culpas of thew Dems, let’s hear yours about the absence of WMDs, the pretext of the war Bush launched. > > Thousands of people dead for a lie. Don’t you think Bush should resign for that? Or to put it more simply, which is it you are lacking – balls or shame? Or possibly … both? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/131 "2005-01-13T20:11:57Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > But Bush DID lie. He knew the Niger yellowcake story was complete and utter bullshit and still he used it as a justification for war. His intel was almost laughably shoddy and he went with it, said he KNEW Saddam had WMDs. You wonder why people yell “Bushlied! Bushlied! Bushlied!” at you? It’s because you exhibit all the signs of deafness. How do you know he knew the NIger yellowcake story was complete and utter bullshit? ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/132 "2005-01-13T20:29:28Z")
Re: [FOX and Lies](http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/11.html): > [@](#): > > In February 2003, **a Florida Court of Appeals unanimously agreed with an assertion by FOX News that there is no rule against distorting or falsifying the news in the United States.** > > Back in December of 1996, Jane Akre and her husband, Steve Wilson, were hired by FOX as a part of the Fox “Investigators” team at WTVT in Tampa Bay, Florida. In 1997 the team began work on a story about bovine growth hormone (BGH), a controversial substance manufactured by Monsanto Corporation. The couple produced a four-part series revealing that there were many health risks related to BGH and that Florida supermarket chains did little to avoid selling milk from cows treated with the hormone, despite assuring customers otherwise. > > According to Akre and Wilson, the station was initially very excited about the series. But within a week, **Fox executives and their attorneys wanted the reporters to use statements from Monsanto representatives that the reporters knew were false and to make other revisions to the story that were in direct conflict with the facts.** Fox editors then tried to force Akre and Wilson to continue to produce the distorted story. When they refused and threatened to report Fox’s actions to the FCC, they were both fired.(Project Censored #12 1997) > > Akre and Wilson sued the Fox station and on August 18, 2000, **a Florida jury unanimously decided that Akre was wrongfully fired by Fox Television when she refused to broadcast (in the jury’s words) “a false, distorted or slanted story”** about the widespread use of BGH in dairy cows… > > FOX appealed the case, and on February 14, 2003 the Florida Second District Court of Appeals unanimously overturned the settlement awarded to Akre… > > **During their appeal, FOX asserted that there are no written rules against distorting news in the media. They argued that, under the First Amendment, broadcasters have the right to lie or deliberately distort news reports on public airwaves. Fox attorneys did not dispute Akre’s claim that they pressured her to broadcast a false story, they simply maintained that it was their right to do so.** My emphasis. Here’s an [Update](http://www.foxbghsuit.com/release.htm): > [@](#): > > TAMPA (January 3, 2005) For what is believed to be the first time ever, two television journalists have challenged the broadcast license of a station on grounds it deliberately broadcast false and distorted news reports… > > The formal Petition To Deny the station’s pending license renewal presents the Federal Communications Commission with 98 pages of what the journalists say is “clear and convincing support for the claim that the licensee is not operating in the public interest and lacks the good character to do so.” Interesting case, no? ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/133 "2005-01-13T20:39:36Z")
Didn’t you know, **Bricker**? When Nigerien Prime Minister Ibrahim Mayaki told Joe Wilson about Iraq’s discussions about “commercial relations” he meant that Niger might be able to sate Saddam and his sons’ huge craving for cowpeas. That must be it, because cowpeas are Niger’s only export besides uranium ore and onions. And everybody knows that Saddam Hussein hates onions. So there. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/134 "2005-01-13T20:54:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > Bush did not lie. He reasonably relied on sources that turned out to be wrong – sources that others in the GOP AND THE DEMOCRATS also relied upon. > > Same is true for Rather. He reasonably relied on sources that others also relied up. I never called for Rather’s head. Mary Mapes, on the other hand, KNEW she was lying when she described the provenance of her documents. For that, she quite properly loses her job. Given the consequences of their reliance on the completely false information about WMD (much, much more deplorable than the possible consequences of Ms. Mapes actions - it wasn’t going to cost Bush the election even if it proved true), George Tenent, Donald Rumsfeld, and Condoleza Rice should all have been fired. Instead, George Tenent got to retire and receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom, Rumsfeld is still the Secty of Defense, and Rice got a promotion. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/135 "2005-01-13T21:10:00Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > Re: [FOX and Lies](http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/11.html):My emphasis. Here’s an [Update](http://www.foxbghsuit.com/release.htm): > Interesting case, no? Very interesting. This case is not, I should point out, about Fox lying. It’s about two journalists who claim Fox wanted them to lie, and, when they refused, they were fired. So, point 1 – nowhere in this story do we have Fox or Fox journalists lying. Second point – Fox’s defense was not, “Yes, we lied, but we have the right to.” It was, “Even assuming, for the purposes of this litigation, that we told them to lie, we have the right to.” This is a very common method of legal analysis. It was, by way of example (and NOT TU QUOQUE, JUST EXAMPLE THAT MAY BE FAMILIAR TO THE READER!) exactly what Clinton’s team did in the Paula Jones case… “Even if everything she said is true, she doesn’t state a legal claim for harrassment.” Same deal here: “Even if everything they claim is true, they don’t state a legal claim for whistleblower protection.” Entirely proper - in both cases. No admission that they lied, or that they asked Akre and Wilson to lie, just pointing out that even if they did, that’s not actionable. So - not a Fox lie. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/136 "2005-01-13T21:12:19Z")
> [@plnnr](#): > > Given the consequences of their reliance on the completely false information about WMD (much, much more deplorable than the possible consequences of Ms. Mapes actions - it wasn’t going to cost Bush the election even if it proved true), George Tenent, Donald Rumsfeld, and Condoleza Rice should all have been fired. Instead, George Tenent got to retire and receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom, Rumsfeld is still the Secty of Defense, and Rice got a promotion. If that were the standard, who in his right mind would take the job? It’s like telling a judge, “If you convict someone who turns out to be innocent, you lose your job!” Those are serious consequences too – a man’s life or freedom. Yet we don’t fire judges even if they convict someone that later turns out to be innocent. Why? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/137 "2005-01-13T21:16:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If that were the standard, who in his right mind would take the job? It’s like telling a judge, “If you convict someone who turns out to be innocent, you lose your job!” Those are serious consequences too – a man’s life or freedom. Yet we don’t fire judges even if they convict someone that later turns out to be innocent. > > Why? Wait a sec. You wanted firings for dishonesty in the CBS case where the consequences were trivial, but you don’t want firings for the fuckup in Iraq where the results of Bush administration dishonesty have been catastrophic? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/138 "2005-01-13T21:33:50Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Wait a sec. You wanted firings for dishonesty in the CBS case where the consequences were trivial, but you don’t want firings for the fuckup in Iraq where the results of Bush administration dishonesty have been catastrophic? I didn’t want firings based on the consequences. I wanted firings based on the negligence. I DO want the judge to lose his job, if he sentences an innocent man because he fell asleep during trial and didn’t follow all the testimony. Show me the negligence. Show me that Bush knowingly lied, or unreasonably relied on information he should have known was suspect. That’s what Mapes did. That’s NOT what Rather did – he reasonably relied on what Mapes told him, and that’s why I’ve never called for his head. He trusted his producer. He’s clean. She lied. She’s dirty. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/139 "2005-01-13T21:35:23Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Wait a sec. You wanted firings for dishonesty in the CBS case where the consequences were trivial, but you don’t want firings for the fuckup in Iraq where the results of Bush administration dishonesty have been catastrophic? Trivial? They (and I’m including Rather here) were eager to rush that story out in order to try to influence the outcome of a U.S. Presidential election in the way they, a supposedly unbiased news agency, wanted it to go. Needless to say, the outcome of the election is something that has a huge impact both here and on the world stage, and which to a certain degree even determines world history. Doesn’t sound trivial to me. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086/140 "2005-01-13T21:43:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Show me the negligence. Show me that Bush knowingly lied, or unreasonably relied on information he should have known was suspect. That’s what Mapes did. That’s NOT what Rather did – he reasonably relied on what Mapes told him, and that’s why I’ve never called for his head. He trusted his producer. He’s clean. She lied. She’s dirty. I said “firings,” not whose. Shouldn’t Condi go? She either knew the data were false or ought to have known. Tenet resigned, but he got a frickin’ medal! Doesn’t sound like he’s in serious disgrace. You might even run into him at the inaugural ball. How about Rummy? As SecDef, he clearyl either participated in the lie or did not practice due diligence. Who, in your opinion, bears the blame for the false pretext of the war? Anyone? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-mapes-fired-over-fake-bush-letters/284086.md?page=8)