# Mary meets a lot of creepy dudes on "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 7, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158 "2018-03-07T00:28:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/21 "2018-03-07T14:05:14Z")
The Rule of Funny applies. Mary dating a normal, unremarkable guy isn’t funny. So they have to be oddballs. Usually. A couple times that have Mary date a normal-ish guy for a couple of episodes and then disappear into the Mary Richards’ ex-boyfriend pit. We watched the whole series a few months back. It really is weird how at the end of an episode she’s happily dating a guy and then in the next episode he’s gone without a mention. Now that’s creepy. Maybe she’s killing them and selling the bodies to Raoul. The show also strays into the Cousin Oliver trope, almost [literally](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0728411/). ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/22 "2018-03-07T15:57:58Z")
About Mare’s dating - it gets bad when she starts thinking about dating Lou, and I think Murray as well. Talk about running out of ideas. It’s like the Love Boat - who can we pair up this week. (hmm, Murray, Steubing…maybe there’s a connection!) At least she never considered dating Ted. Or Chuckles. It was demeaning to Mary, Lou and the audience. OTOH, rewatching it as an adult, i couldn’t believe how much innuendo there was, especially considering the time. When I watched it as a 10 year old, it was squeaky clean. Or so I thought. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/23 "2018-03-07T16:08:46Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > It really is weird how at the end of an episode she’s happily dating a guy and then in the next episode he’s gone without a mention. Now that’s creepy. > > Maybe she’s killing them and selling the bodies to Raoul. Nowhere was this truer than in the case of “Joe,” played by Ted Bessel of \*\*\*That Girl \*\*\*fame. He was in two or three episodes, in one of which he and Mary declared their love for each other. Then he’s “out of town,” and finally never mentioned again. I always assumed his plane had crashed somewhere over the Grand Canyon on his way back to Minnesota. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/24 "2018-03-07T16:12:14Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > About Mare’s dating - it gets bad when she starts thinking about dating Lou, and I think Murray as well. Lou, yes, at Georgette’s suggestion. Murray, never, though he fantasized about Mary on more than one occasion and was tempted by Barbara Barrie (“Mrs Barney Miller”) on another. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/25 "2018-03-07T16:18:42Z")
They crafted Mary’s character as a single career woman taking on the world. Succeeding and accomplishing her dreams. Any man Mary met had zero chance of entering into a long and supportive relationship. It would have altered the entire premise of the show. So, the guys she dated were duds. Note the songs informs us, “you’re all alone”. > [@](#): > > How will you make it on your own?  > This world is awfully big, girl this time you’re all alone  > But it’s time you started living  > It’s time you let someone else do some giving > > Love is all around, no need to waste it ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/26 "2018-03-07T16:33:47Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > And I’m going to agree with **Sam Stone** in post #2: MTM was a true feminist in the 70’s. She stood up for herself. > She’d invite men into her apartment, and throw them out if she wanted. Today’s snowflakes are all about helplessness and victimhood. Idiocy like this will turn this into a pit thread pretty quick. Women today ARE standing up, demanding the behavior STOP. How you see this as helplessness is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/27 "2018-03-07T17:28:02Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Just wait for the clown funeral. It will change your life.😉 A little song, a little dance. A little seltzer in your pants. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/28 "2018-03-07T17:49:31Z")
There was one show near the end where her mother was visiting, I think, and mom said, ‘Mary, are you taking your pill every day?’ (meaning her vitamin pill, and the way it was written and seen, it was obvious that Mary’s ‘pill’ was the birth control pill. She also went to a formal affair and came home the next day, staying at her date’s all night. So Mary did a lot of dating, successful, unsuccessful, with good guys and hopeless guys. BUT HER ROMANCES WERE NOT THE FOCUS of the show. As in anybody’s life, a date, a romantic weekend, a one-night stand, a marriage or relationship is only PART of their life. Based around work and friends and the newsroom, this is what raised the MTM show above any lame sit-com about a young woman - ‘will she find Mr. Right and live happily ever after’ - who cares? that was not the premise. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/29 "2018-03-07T17:58:09Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > The Rule of Funny applies. > > Mary dating a normal, unremarkable guy isn’t funny. So they have to be oddballs. > > Usually. > > A couple times that have Mary date a normal-ish guy for a couple of episodes and then disappear into the Mary Richards’ ex-boyfriend pit. > > We watched the whole series a few months back. It really is weird how at the end of an episode she’s happily dating a guy and then in the next episode he’s gone without a mention. Now that’s creepy. > > Maybe she’s killing them and selling the bodies to Raoul. > > The show also strays into the Cousin Oliver trope, almost [literally](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0728411/). Unless he is something special, unless he is going to become part of the cast, unless he is Mr. Right or Prince Charming who is going to sweep our Mare off her feet and carry her off to live happily ever after, why on earth should he be in every show? Isn’t he just a guy she goes on dates with? There’s no need for his presence in every episode, it doesn’t mean he’s disappeared, moved away, or is now an ex-boyfriend. He’s working at his own job, living in his own apartment, he and Mary meet up after work or on a weekend, otherwise, it’s business as usual for both… He isn’t that important or necessary to the show. Mary goes on dates with men and some are just casual or are just more friends. Why does that guy have to be a presence on every episode unless he’s more important in the storyline?..Here’s a thing how come in old movies and tv shows there are swingin’ ladies men types who have a parade of hot chicks in and out of their lives? You don’t see anyone except maybe their mommy wringing their hands wondering what happened to the blond, or the brunette, or the redhead. They are seen, kiss kiss, and the hero goes on with his private detective job or airline job, and next time you see him, there is another hot chick just passing through. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Mapp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_mapp/32/369_2.png) [@Miss\_Mapp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Mapp)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/30 "2018-03-07T18:15:19Z")
> [@salinqmind](#): > > There was one show near the end where her mother was visiting, I think, and mom said, ‘Mary, are you taking your pill every day?’ (meaning her vitamin pill, and the way it was written and seen, it was obvious that Mary’s ‘pill’ was the birth control pill. She also went to a formal affair and came home the next day, staying at her date’s all night. This was during the 3rd season, when Mary’s parents moved to Minneapolis and briefly had a part as supporting characters on the show. Mary’s mom was reminding her husband not to forget to take his (heart) pill and both Dad and Mary responded “I won’t.” When I was a kid, I remember my parents having a conversation about whether or not Mary Richards was still a virgin–which as a grown-up makes me think they weren’t watching the show very closely. There are plenty of indications that she’s sexually active and that not all her dates were so awful that sex was out of the question. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/31 "2018-03-07T18:34:14Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > …I literally have a female friend who went on a date that ended up going to a gun range, a taco truck (not a gourmet truck, just the normal white trucks that go to factories), and then a strip club. When I asked why she didn’t cut and run after the taco truck, her response was to the effect that it wasn’t the worst date she’d been on because at least the guy was actually paying for everything without hinting that she should offer to split or complaining about the costs, and plus, the gun range was at least a novel date idea… My mother dated a cop before she dated my father. One of their dates got sidetracked and he had to take her to a last minute work thing. The last minute work thing was an _autopsy_. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/32 "2018-03-07T18:37:57Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > I always remembered the time Mary dated a man much shorter than her. Given that I am a fairly short man (I’m 5’6") the whole premise kinda pissed me off – Oh, Mary Richards, how incredibly progressive of you, deigning to enjoy the company of a man who doesn’t tower over you. Oh, how difficult gender relations were in the US at this time, where you might have to make small talk with a short man. Pfft. In the real world of the 1970’s, Dudley Moore was dating supermodel Susan Anton. Ok, maybe it helps to rich, famous, and charming if you want leggy supermodel arm-candy. > > Thing is, dating or more interesting story lines, it didn’t matter – Mary Tyler Moore had great comedic timing and knew how to emote intensity with just enough subtlety to make the characters believable. > > However, the 1970’s issues they had to deal with made me think “Huh? Is that really an important issue?” I have totally different memories of the show, which starred the great Hamilton Camp, not merely a funny comic actor but a folk singer who wrote “Pride of Man,” the legendary first song off the first Quicksilver Messenger Service album. Anyway, Mary first meets him when he’s sitting behind the desk at an interview. He’s smart, funny, and charming. Of course she interested. It isn’t until he stands up that she’s disconcerted about his height. Mary, not his height, is the butt of the joke for the rest of the show. Her prejudice cost her a great catch. In the end, he goes out with Rhoda, who doesn’t have Mary’s hangups. It’s the exact opposite of an episode in which she dates a creep: she’s the creep. And it’s episode 7 in season 1. How did the OP miss it? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/33 "2018-03-07T18:41:45Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > They crafted Mary’s character as a single career woman taking on the world. Succeeding and accomplishing her dreams. > > Any man Mary met had zero chance of entering into a long and supportive relationship. It would have altered the entire premise of the show. > > So, the guys she dated were duds. > > Note the songs informs us, “you’re all alone”. If the OP sticks with the show, he should notice how the theme song changes, I think starting with season 2. “You might just make it after all” becomes “You’re gonna make it after all.” The tone of the song is more upbeat, and most or all of the lyrics you quoted are gone. “Who can turn the world on with her smile?” The show was originally crafted as Mary being single and 30, having been dumped by her fiancé whom she helped put through medical school if memory serves, and that being an almost hopeless situation that she can maybe overcome (with spunk, no doubt). When the show ended she was still single and nearly 40 (in show time) but no-one seemed to think that was a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/34 "2018-03-07T18:43:58Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > About Mare’s dating - it gets bad when she starts thinking about dating Lou, and I think Murray as well. Talk about running out of ideas. It’s like the Love Boat - who can we pair up this week. (hmm, Murray, Steubing…maybe there’s a connection!) At least she never considered dating Ted. Or Chuckles. It was demeaning to Mary, Lou and the audience. When watching the show as a much younger person I had the impression that Lou was much older than Mary. In reality he was only 6 years older. Certainly within dating range. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/35 "2018-03-07T18:45:05Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > If the OP sticks with the show, he should notice how the theme song changes, I think starting with season 2. > > “You might just make it after all” becomes “You’re gonna make it after all.” The tone of the song is more upbeat, and most or all of the lyrics you quoted are gone. “Who can turn the world on with her smile?” > > The show was originally crafted as Mary being single and 30, having been dumped by her fiancé whom she helped put through medical school if memory serves, and that being an almost hopeless situation that she can maybe overcome (with spunk, no doubt). When the show ended she was still single and nearly 40 (in show time) but no-one seemed to think that was a problem. The show was originally crafted as Mary being recently divorced. The network wouldn’t allow it. ---
**Author:** ![BeeGee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5a626/32.png) [@BeeGee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeeGee)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/36 "2018-03-07T18:59:36Z")
For some perspective, this was supposed to be about a divorced woman starting over. The network wasn’t having it. Especially since Mary Tyler Moore had been Laura Petrie. They figured that audiences would hate “Mary Richards” because she’d divorced “Rob Petrie”. So they ended up portraying her as a woman who is starting over after nearly marrying a doctor. Though the show didn’t break the ground it once intended to break, it was pretty significant. A single woman who is the title character of a show. It’s about her in her workplace and home primarily. Some shows focused on a dating situation, but it was not primarily about a single woman trying to find a husband. I can’t think of a single other show before that that didn’t make a single female primarily chasing a husband. Of course she’s meeting low level creeps. That’s the point. These aren’t the “slap his face and kick him in the nuts” creeps. These are the “Jesus, we’re only at the salad and I want to stick a fork in my eye. WHY did I agree to meet for dinner instead of just drinks? Could I set myself on fire and get out of this?” level creeps. Also ground breaking. These were guys you knew. The Qiana and Sansabelt makes them seem ultra sleazy today, but those same guys are still here. They just dress different. The show portrayed a woman who was having a fairly successful career, but a lousy love life. And it wasn’t the end of the world and she was “gonna make it after all.” As in having a good life that wasn’t the wife and mother route she was “supposed” to have. ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/37 "2018-03-07T19:13:12Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > HUH? I haven’t been on a date for 30 years…but geez, what woman (or man) goes on a date without knowing where they are going? > That seems creepier to me than all the male-creepiness this thread has mentioned. > > A guy on the phone says “let’s go out Saturday night”, and the woman doesn’t reply with “great idea!—where?” > Nobody suggests, say, a disco, or a movie, or a pub, or maybe dinner at Applebees? Is there no other discussion? > Sorry—but I just don’t get it. > > And I’m going to agree with **Sam Stone** in post #2: MTM was a true feminist in the 70’s. She stood up for herself. > She’d invite men into her apartment, and throw them out if she wanted. **Today’s snowflakes are all about helplessness and victimhood.** > > (Sorry,mods… I know this is CS. But the thread is not only about Mary Tyler Moore–it’s also about creepy behavior.) Absolute bullshit. On what do you base your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/38 "2018-03-07T20:22:50Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > The show was originally crafted as Mary being single and 30, having been dumped by her fiancé whom she helped put through medical school if memory serves, and that being an almost hopeless situation that she can maybe overcome (with spunk, no doubt). When the show ended she was still single and nearly 40 (in show time) but no-one seemed to think that was a problem. Actually, she dumped him. After being together for two years, he said “Why rush into things?” when she asked if it wasn’t time they got married. Lou Grant was a WWII veteran, so he must have been around 18 in 1942. That would make him 46 in 1970. Sixteen years older than Mary Richards. IRL, Ed Asner was born in November 1929, and Mary Tyler Moore was born in December 1936. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/39 "2018-03-07T20:38:09Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > This is a culture clash. Back in the 70’s, the feminist ideal was a woman living on her own who could handle pervy men just fine, thanks. An unwanted grope would result in a slap and being shown the door, not a lawsuit followed by psychiatric care for the trauma. So showing Mary effortlessly navigating creeps and needy men was seen as female empowerment, and not male evil. > > Feminists back then felt that women were just as tough as men and could deal with garden variety boorishness just fine. Today, modern feminism seems to be more about saying that women need an intense amount of sheltering because they are just so fragile. It’s almost Victorian. You present a very rosy view of a 1970s I doubt ever existed. It’d be _great_ if men, then or now, would take a slap to the face as being the clear and unambiguous symbol to back off, instead of becoming persistent and harassing (as some of the characters on _MTM_ have been described, albeit comically). ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158/40 "2018-03-07T21:54:24Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > I’ve watched the first 17 episodes, and there is one thing I have noticed so far: there are way more episodes than I expected where Mary has to give some creepy dude the brush-off. Didn’t you know that the show is a documentary? Seriously, have you been watching the news for the past year? Women have to fend off creepy guys all the time. What’s surprising is that a sitcom from the 70s was so up-front about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-meets-a-lot-of-creepy-dudes-on-the-mary-tyler-moore-show/810158.md?page=3)