# Mary Sue characters **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 2, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642 "2009-01-02T23:16:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/202 "2012-04-10T12:19:59Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Well do you agree that some characters in fiction are so Totally Awesome that they start to become ridiculous and/or uninteresting? Do you agree that sometimes authors insert an idealized version of themselves (or of their dream girl / dream guy) into their fiction? Do you agree that this phenomenon is common enough that it is reasonable to give it a name? But not Mary Sue, at least not anymore; I’ve seen the term used for too many things that aren’t any of those. Something with a less elastic definition like “author insertion character” or “wish fulfillment fantasy” would work better than “Mary Sue”, because the latter is defined far too elastically IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/203 "2012-04-10T12:30:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Something with a less elastic definition like “author insertion character” or “wish fulfillment fantasy” Ok, I accept that there are people out there who have abused the phrase “Mary Sue.” Anyway, I think that James Bond is another Mary Sue / wish fulfillment fantasy / author’s dream guy. I used to enjoy watching James Bond movies quite a bit. James Bond is a connoisseur about everything. Girls throw themselves at him wherever he goes. The normal rules don’t apply to James Bond. (What is a license to kill anyway? Does that mean he can shoot anyone who brings 15 items into the “12 items only” line?) ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/204 "2012-04-10T12:42:30Z")
James Bond as originally written as a Stu, but in films the point is being essentially infallible. I dont view that as the same thing - its more an in joke than a wish fantasy, trying to come up with something even more absurd that he can overcome or survive. I view the Hamilton books mentioned early in the thread as a perfect example. They’re so utterly self indulgent later in the series its mindblowing. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/205 "2012-04-11T01:59:37Z")
The Gary Stu in my first serious fanfic was a sociopath. Just saying. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/206 "2012-04-11T03:22:51Z")
I thought of one from history: ‘Natty’ Bumppo (sheesh, that name sounds awful to the modern ear), from the Deerstalker books by James Fenimore Cooper. Well, no, I haven’t read any of the books, actually, but if the fellow was as terrifyingly perfect as Mark Twain satirized him as being, it would be absolutely necessary to nuke him from space. Just because. ---
**Author:** ![koeeoaddi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/koeeoaddi/32/408_2.png) [@koeeoaddi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koeeoaddi)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/207 "2012-04-11T03:48:32Z")
Dr. Anne Edwards in [The Sparrow](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/334176.The_Sparrow). She’s brilliant, kind, funny, attractive and just too damn wonderful for this world or any other. Classic Mary-Sue. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/208 "2012-04-11T13:00:17Z")
> [@Otara](#): > > James Bond as originally written as a Stu, but in films the point is being essentially infallible. > > I dont view that as the same thing - its more an in joke than a wish fantasy, trying to come up with something even more absurd that he can overcome or survive. I disagree, but I don’t see any objective way to assess this. I concede there may be critics out there who argued that Bond has become a self-parody. ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/209 "2012-04-11T13:20:26Z")
I liked that someone pointed out that Winston Churchil was a Mary Sue in the Plotholes in WWII thread ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/210 "2012-04-11T13:39:05Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Honor Harrington, from David Weber’s series. > > I really liked the “duel scene,” but it really pushes one’s willing suspension of disbelief. Is there anything she can’t do twice as well as the best experts? Of course, in addition to being the premier naval officer, she is also fabulously wealthy, has numerous royal titles bestowed upon her, and has a magical pet which gives her psychic abilities. Oh, and she can eat whatever she wants without getting fat. > > I agree about Jack Ryan. (One red flag of a Mary Sue is that the character is the same ethnicity as the author.) > > “Edeard” from Peter Hamilton’s Void Trilogy. (also known as “The Waterwalker”). He has far stronger psychic ability than anyone else. Every girl in town wants to have sex with him. Every time he gets into trouble, he discovers some new psychic ability which gets him out. His only flaw is his innocent naivite, which only makes him more endearing. And of course he is completely incorruptible. I was just coming in to suggest Honor Harrington. Absolutely the most Mary Sue character I have ever encountered in science fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Vigilante](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sister\_Vigilante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sister_Vigilante)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/211 "2012-04-11T16:57:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Oh, god, yes. Hamilton is disgusting. She can barely write a sentence and all of it seems to be a personal sex fantasy. I saw her at a convention and she herself admitted that the character was a Mary Sue and self insert by saying that when she first conceived of Anita, she looked just like her and was the same age she was at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/212 "2012-04-11T17:32:04Z")
I thought Mary Sues had to have a large element of author insertion in them, which is why they mostly appear in fanfic. Simply being larger than life, even to an absurd degree, doesn’t make a character a Mary Sue. Honor Harrington isn’t any more a Mary Sue than Batman is a Gary Stu. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/213 "2012-04-11T19:28:08Z")
This isn’t a proper quote using the system because for some reason, although I can see **Larry** ’s post in the thread itself, I can’t quote it and it doesn’t show in View Single Post or the Topic Review under the Reply box. Very confusing. > [@Larry Borgia](#): > > I thought Mary Sues had to have a large element of author insertion in them, which is why they mostly appear in fanfic. Simply being larger than life, even to an absurd degree, doesn’t make a character a Mary Sue. Honor Harrington isn’t any more a Mary Sue than Batman is a Gary Stu. Self-insertion really isn’t necessary, though it can certainly be a part of it. Self-insertion can _highlight_ the Mary Sue-ism, as it’s a hallmark of poor writing. You put yourself in the story and then you make yourself the Best Person Ever. It’s sloppy. But it’s perfectly possible to write a Mary Sue that has no connection to yourself. Mary Sue-ism basically idealization; it’s a character that is so perfect that they do not have flaws, or if they do then those flaws either are completely meaningless in the context of the story (say, an allergy to peanuts wherein the topic of food never actually arises) or they’re not really flaws at all (in the sense of job interview-style weaknesses like ‘I’m a perfectionist’). If a character has even one personal flaw that presents a significant obstacle for them in the course of the story, they’re very likely not a Mary Sue (but they can still be a self-insertion). To a large degree, though, Mary Sue-ism includes the writer’s skill. If they write well and can make the character likeable, it’s larger than life. If they’re not quite as adept and the writing is poorer quality, it’s a Mary Sue. People like Honor and Batman, so they’re simply epic characters. But Marissa from Stephen Ratliff’s writing, as a crappy fanfic example, is definitely a Mary Sue despite being much like Honor (to my understanding). ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/214 "2012-04-11T20:11:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But not Mary Sue, at least not anymore; I’ve seen the term used for too many things that aren’t any of those. Something with a less elastic definition like “author insertion character” or “wish fulfillment fantasy” would work better than “Mary Sue”, because the latter is defined far too elastically IMHO. I first encountered “Mary Sue” in fanfiction critiques & I wish it would remain there. It’s too juvenile for me. Haven’t most of us sat through enough English classes to have more precise phrases? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/215 "2012-04-11T20:37:41Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I thought Mary Sues had to have a large element of author insertion in them, I don’t think there is an official definition of “Mary Sue,” but I do think it makes sense to define the term a bit more broadly. Because the problem with a Mary Sue is not so much the author insertion as the excessive idealization of the character. > [@](#): > > Mary Sue-ism basically idealization; it’s a character that is so perfect that they do not have flaws, or if they do then those flaws either are completely meaningless in the context of the story (say, an allergy to peanuts wherein the topic of food never actually arises) or they’re not really flaws at all (in the sense of job interview-style weaknesses like ‘I’m a perfectionist’). I agree with this. For example Honor Harrington was apparently weak in math while in school, but it never held her back in any way. She never made a math error, resulting in innocent people being killed. Her other flaw was that she was so uncompromising in her principles. As you say, this is a non-weakness weakness. Anyway, it leads her to challenge her boyfriend’s killer to a duel, resulting in her dismissal from the military. Of course, later she is reinstated. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/216 "2012-04-11T20:40:42Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Haven’t most of us sat through enough English classes to have more precise phrases? What would you call a character who is overly idealized to the point where he or she starts to become uninteresting;starts to break the audience’s willful suspension of disbelief; and/or starts to suck the life out of the story? ETA: I think “Mary Sue” is a nice phrase for this phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/217 "2012-04-11T21:08:17Z")
People say a character is a Mary Sue far too easily. Just because a character is good at something - or several things - doesn’t mean they’re a Mary Sue. I mean, in real life I know several people who are really good at multiple things and also pretty popular - having someone like that in a story is not unrealistic. > [@Krokodil](#): > > Abby and Ziva (and Caitlin and Lauren Holly’s character, for that matter) from **NCIS** have quirks aplenty, but no real flaws. They’re in the club. They’re clearly both very messed up, though. And non-evil guest characters often don’t like Ziva, and she’s had a couple of unsuccessful relationships, and can’t really use computers well or drive well - she’s just very good at fighting and strategy. Abby’s quirks would be flaws outside of the little world she lives in. > [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > I gotta say–Conan the Barbarian is an uber-Mary-Sue. I don’t think it counts if the character is never intended to be taken seriously. > [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Less serious suggestion but one that I think could do with a bit of examination - Harry Potter. Magic is a bit irrelevant as he lives in a community of magic users, but he’s forever finding he has new powers and abilities that others don’t (even if they’re explained and/or important to the plot), masters things really easily (quidditch anyone?), triumphs over every and any adversity sometimes even inadvertently, gets the girl, and everyone who dislikes him (other than Snape) is by definition evil. Any thoughts on that one? The only thing he’s really good at is Quidditch. Plenty of people don’t like him; he had difficulty finding anyone to take the Yule Ball. The plot does revolve around him, but not because he’s such a special and wonderful person. The only new power he finds he had is speaking to snakes, and there’s an in-story reason for that. Hermione’s a much better suggestion for a Mary Sue from the Harry Potter series. I guess her being a bit superior and irritable - real character flaws, not something like clumsiness - counteracts that somewhat, but not much. She’s still an interesting character somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/218 "2012-04-11T21:39:34Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Haven’t most of us sat through enough English classes to have more precise phrases? Seems precise enough to me. It’s everyone else what’s misusing it. 😛 Anyway, it’s less of a literary term and more of a [trope term](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue). I think it has use, but it does usually need to be followed by explanation for an individual case. ---
**Author:** ![MacSpon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@MacSpon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacSpon)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/219 "2012-04-11T23:18:33Z")
The main character from Kylie Chan’s “Dark Heavens” series (_White Tiger_, _Red Phoenix_ and _Blue Dragon_) is a very noticeable Mary Sue. I actually liked the first book, but the second and third ones got progressively more revolting because Emma was so wonderful and perfect. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/220 "2012-04-11T23:52:41Z")
I’ve just thought of one who’s evolved into a Gary Stu - Vimes from the Discworld books. It was really quite embarrassing how Gary Stu-ish he was in Snuff. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/221 "2012-04-12T00:40:13Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I’ve just thought of one who’s evolved into a Gary Stu - Vimes from the Discworld books. It was really quite embarrassing how Gary Stu-ish he was in Snuff. Snuff can pretty much be summed up as “Vimes’s life is now completely awesome and everything goes right.” It’s pretty overkill, yes, though since it’s probably the last Vimes book Pratchett will ever write (:() I consider it the Happy Ending closure and give it some leeway. The Discworld has a few “perfect” characters, come to think of it. Vimes (post-Jingo), Carrot, Susan Sto Helit, Granny Weatherwax, _arguably_ Rincewind (being an Anti-Sue), maybe some others. They can’t do any wrong (no matter how hard Rincewind tries), their enemies are effortlessly swept aside, and the plot rolls over and shows its belly for them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642.md?page=12)