# Mary Sue characters **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 2, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642 "2009-01-02T23:16:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/21 "2009-01-03T03:08:40Z")
The [Mary Sue](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue) trope as treated by [Girl Genius.](http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20051212) ---
**Author:** ![WormTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/bbe5ce/32.png) [@WormTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WormTheRed)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/22 "2009-01-03T03:13:53Z")
What about Bran in Wheel of Time? He’s pretty much perfect, and he even gets to “marry” three of the main women? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/23 "2009-01-03T04:01:38Z")
Matt Albie (Matthew Perry) in _Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip_ was a complete Mary Sue. ---
**Author:** ![Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glory)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/24 "2009-01-03T04:06:06Z")
Anita Blake from Laurell K. Hamilton’s Vampire Hunter series. I really liked the first book, but it became increasingly obvious and uncomfortable that Anita Blake was a “stand in” for Laurell K. Hamilton - down to the short stature and long dark curly hair. Eventually, every single creature (living, dead, undead) wanted to bang Anita and it just seemed like creepy wank material - I was through with the series. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/25 "2009-01-03T04:22:19Z")
[_Lost in Austen_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_in_Austen) - Modern girl Amanda Price magically swaps places with Elizabeth Bennet in Pride and Prejudice. Things start going wrong with the story line and guess who Darcy falls in love with? Great fun, total Mary Sue. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/26 "2009-01-03T05:04:20Z")
> [@Glory](#): > > Anita Blake from Laurell K. Hamilton’s Vampire Hunter series. I really liked the first book, but it became increasingly obvious and uncomfortable that Anita Blake was a “stand in” for Laurell K. Hamilton - down to the short stature and long dark curly hair. Eventually, every single creature (living, dead, undead) wanted to bang Anita and it just seemed like creepy wank material - I was through with the series. Oh, god, yes. Hamilton is disgusting. She can barely write a sentence and all of it seems to be a personal sex fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/27 "2009-01-03T05:05:44Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > But I think Wil Wheaton knows how one-sided the character was written and maybe if he’d been a bit older during _ST:TNG_, he might have been able to speak up. What makes you think that would have made any difference? Actors who cause too much trouble routinely find themselves out of a job. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/28 "2009-01-03T05:46:55Z")
Death from **Sandman** is a bit of a Mary Sue, even though the author is a male. Kind of an Anima, actually. Sensible, beautiful, no real character flaws. Abby and Ziva (and Caitlin and Lauren Holly’s character, for that matter) from **NCIS** have quirks aplenty, but no real flaws. They’re in the club. Kitty Pryde? Just call her Mary Sue Pryde! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/29 "2009-01-03T06:22:31Z")
I think we’re a bit hazy on the Mary Sue ideal. I’ve always felt that the defining characterisitic of a Mary Sue characters is not the character’s perfection; a Mary Sue is when an author creates an idealized version of themselves as a character and inserts the character into a story as wish-fulfillment. ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/30 "2009-01-03T06:59:34Z")
By **Just Some Guy** ’s definition, Perry Mason is a Mary Sue. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/31 "2009-01-03T07:13:09Z")
I agree with **Little Nemo** ’s definition. I’d like to also nominate William Horwood’s sequels to _The Wind in the Willows_, where he inserts another Mole character, a writer, who helps so very much while being so very humble. Also, Laurie R King’s _Mary Russell_ books, where the herione is everything proper in a Victorian Lady and smart and physically fit and fine looking , and just as analytically gifted as her partner / husband … Sherlock Holmes. I have to admit reading only one book in each series. Nothing on this earth will convince me to read the others. They lacked the tongue in cheek charm of _Lost in Austen._ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/32 "2009-01-03T07:37:01Z")
> [@Glory](#): > > . . . and it just seemed like creepy wank material - I was through with the series. 😕 Shouldn’t that be where you **start** to get interested?! ---
**Author:** ![Krav\_Manga](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krav_manga/32/3153_2.png) [@Krav\_Manga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krav_Manga)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/33 "2009-01-03T07:41:49Z")
Tom Clancy’s Jack Ryan has to be a classic Mary Sue. You just know that Clancy imagines himself as President Ryan. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/34 "2009-01-03T07:45:42Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Death from **Sandman** is a bit of a Mary Sue, even though the author is a male. Kind of an Anima, actually. Sensible, beautiful, no real character flaws. Does this count, if she’s not really a person but the embodiment of a concept? She’s not human, she’s an immortal being and, in the Sandman series, not a main character. I thought the whole idea of a Mary Sue is that they’re supposed to be one of the protagnonists, who is regular person, and their annoying perfection transcends any sort of suspension of disbelief. A physical representation of death would, by necessity, have to possess extraordinary qualities. Nothing about Death was inconsistent with her role and what powers such a being should have. She is also explored more fully in the miniseries about her, and when she’s the protagonist, she’s not represented as perfect or above making mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/35 "2009-01-03T07:56:12Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Does this count, if she’s not really a person but the embodiment of a concept? All fictional characters are embodiments of concepts. > [@](#): > > She is also explored more fully in the miniseries about her, and when she’s the protagonist, she’s not represented as perfect or above making mistakes. Well, she’s shown as sensible and appealing in a way that, say, none of her siblings are. And in her primary role as a supporting character in **SANDMAN** , she highlights his flaws by not having any. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/36 "2009-01-03T08:00:04Z")
If there’s a Mary Sue in Gaiman’s Death stories, it’s Sexton not Death. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/37 "2009-01-03T08:16:05Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > All fictional characters are embodiments of concepts. Not to the extent that a character who is written to be, literally, a walking representation of a concept is. She’s Death, not a person (except for that one day every 100 years), never been a person, and by virtue of being Death, is one of the most powerful beings in the universe, by definition. She is supposed to be extraordinary. > [@](#): > > Well, she’s shown as sensible and appealing in a way that, say, none of her siblings are. And in her primary role as a supporting character in **SANDMAN** , she highlights his flaws by not having any. Being sensible and appealing by themselves do not make you a Mary Sue. I think it’s too easy to call any likeable and smart character, especially ones in small parts, a Mary Sue, but it should be reserved for characters who truly irritate and grate because they are so ridiculously perfect. But anyway. [Here’s a scoring checklist I found online.](http://www.ponylandpress.com/ms-test.html) I filled it out for Bella Swann and scored 83: Irredeemable-Sue. Interestingly, the author of the quiz mentions Morpheus from Sandman: > [@](#): > > Again, keep in mind that the test isn’t always correct. Morpheus from the Sandman Comics scored nearly 70 points, and yet we don’t believe he’s a Mary-Sue. He’s well developed, suffers the consequences of several major personality flaws, and has very few powers or talents besides those necessary to perform the duties of his station. Of course, research, an interesting story, and good writing always help too. 😉 If you think about this in terms of Death, it’s also applicable. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/38 "2009-01-03T09:28:07Z")
I always imagined that Mary Sue character descriptions read like horoscopes- they say a lot of flattering things but ultimately reveal no character. They may seem meaningful at first glance, but in reality it’s all just bland and vague and complimentary stuff that could apply to anyone. They are clearly and obviously about whoever it is that is projecting on to it. Stuff like “Although you are popular and well liked, only a few people know the real you” and “You have a fire and passionate heart that you have trouble expressing, but when you see situations of injustice you don’t hesitate to speak out.” ---
**Author:** ![Einmon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Einmon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Einmon)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/39 "2009-01-03T10:04:34Z")
I came in here to mention the girl from _Twilight_, but I notice it’s been done. One other characteristic of Mary Sues seems to be that they always act really surprised about their good points: “Oh golly gee, all the boys are in love with me. I wonder why, because I really am so plain even though I have gorgeous red hair and creamy white skin.” Or, their good points are presented as bad (probably for other people/the reader to disagree with): “She sighed when she looked at her long, thin legs. ‘Not healthy and strong like the other girls’ thighs,’ she thought.” ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/40 "2009-01-03T10:11:25Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > You mean like Beth from _Little Women_? I never wanted to slap her, though. She was too sweet. No. Jo March was the character most like the author–but she was not a vision of perfection, either. Because Louisa May Alcott could actually write! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642.md?page=3)