# Mary Sue characters **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 2, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642 "2009-01-02T23:16:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/81 "2009-01-04T20:09:54Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Princess Admiral Marissa Amber Flores Picard Gordon Don’t know that one. What episode is she from? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/82 "2009-01-04T20:12:28Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > Much as it pains me to admit it, because he’s otherwise a talented writer, every second Carl Hiaasen protagonist is a Mary Sue: a middle-aged man, still boyishly handsome and in terrific shape, outwardly world-weary and possessed of an acid wit and a rugged cynicism, yet deep down a tree-hugging idealist who’s always ready to fight the good fight, loves classic rock, has a string of broken relationships due to his adorable quirkiness, and invariably ends up with a gorgeous woman 20 years his junior. Hell, in _Basket Case_ he’s even an investigative journalist. Stop it, Carl. He won’t. I enjoy Hiaasen, but he’s the kind of author who just keeps re-writing the same novel over and over, like the romance writers in the Harlequin stable but with more talent. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/83 "2009-01-04T23:02:02Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Ninjitsu. Gesundheit. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![beanpod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9adbd/32.png) [@beanpod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beanpod)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/84 "2009-01-04T23:54:58Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 😕 Shouldn’t that be where you start to get interested?! [/QUOTE] Like this? [Literature - Penny Arcade](http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/6/2/)😛 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/85 "2009-01-05T01:54:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Don’t know that one. What episode is she from? The original character, a little girl named Marissa Flores, appeared in the TNG episode where Picard gets trapped in a turbolift with the child winners of a science fair or something. That’s the ONLY time she appears in canon Trek. A fanfic writer named Stephen Ratliff then turned her into essentially the supreme goddess of the Trekiverse. Ratliff’s fanfic began with her parents dying and she being adopted by Jean-Luc Picard, becoming the youngest full ensign in Starfleet (at 12 years old), becoming captain of something called “The Kids’ Crew” who somehow ends up with full command of a starship and beats a Cardassian cruiser in battle (carving, with phasers, “I was beaten by a bunch of kids” on their hull). From there, it gets worse. There’s a series of stories about Marissa, which have become famous in the online Trek community through their pillorying in a series of MST3K “mstings”. Stephen’s a good sport about it all. Even the Msting folks have to give him that, since he does give them permission to riff on the stories. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/86 "2009-01-05T02:46:03Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > Much as it pains me to admit it, because he’s otherwise a talented writer, every second Carl Hiaasen protagonist is a Mary Sue: a middle-aged man, still boyishly handsome and in terrific shape, outwardly world-weary and possessed of an acid wit and a rugged cynicism, yet deep down a tree-hugging idealist who’s always ready to fight the good fight, loves classic rock, has a string of broken relationships due to his adorable quirkiness, and invariably ends up with a gorgeous woman 20 years his junior. Hell, in _Basket Case_ he’s even an investigative journalist. Stop it, Carl. You forgot to mention the “bad guys:” 2 incompetent criminals and and evil land developer. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/87 "2009-01-05T02:51:19Z")
Are there any “bad Mary Sues”? Characters who are stand-ins for the author but are villians? When I was in high school, I wrote a “Left Behind” “novel” that covered the whole seven-year “Rapture to Armageddon” period in 50 pages, and made the False Prophet “Bishop Marcus” a stand-in for myself. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/88 "2009-01-05T03:13:03Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Are there any “bad Mary Sues”? Characters who are stand-ins for the author but are villians? There certainly are in fanfiction, and I’d assume there are some in original works, even if I can’t think of any. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/89 "2009-01-05T05:54:47Z")
> [@vifslan](#): > > Being a reader and writer of fanfiction myself, I’m undecided when it comes to the usefulness of the Mary Sue concept, especially when it’s applied to original fiction. First of all, it’s too inexact to be of much use, since it can mean, a) a self-insert character in original fiction, b) a self-insert character in fanfiction, c) any original character in fanfiction, d) any character the reviewer dislikes, or e) a character that is the author’s pet and spoilt and entitled brainchild, and the black hole around which the narrative revolves, not by virtue of their own abilities as much as by the author’s word. I tend to go for the last definition, though it makes it a lot more difficult to issue general statements about what a Mary Sue character is or is not. But you recognise them when you see them. Another reader and writer of fanfic, here. I do recognize that the term can be a bit ambiguous, or even prone to misapplication (as in your examples “C” and “D,” above), but still, I’d consider it useful enough in spite of it’s inexactness—heck, it might be more useful as a slightly looser “category” rather than a strict definition. > [@](#): > > Any online Mary-Sue tests I’ve seen seem to address generalised symptoms rather than the original, individual character, but removing the symptoms doesn’t address the problem. So you’ve changed Arwen’s baby sister’s eyes from colour-changing to a dull dishwater grey, removed her sparkly unicorn pet and made her plain-looking for an Elf, but she still insinuates herself as the tenth member of the Fellowship, emoes about the star-crossed love that she and Legolas Bloomleaf bear each other, steals all the scenes and saves the free world just by existing. She still is a Mary Sue. True enough…but, on the other hand, in my experience, very few ever actually _do_ remove the outward symptoms. It’s like spotting a totalitarian government by seeing who has guys wearing the snazziest, most ornate uniforms—it’s not really a prerequisite, and it’s not really addressing the deeper issues involved, but it’s actually a pretty useful indicator a good majority of the time. Not a very _clever_ one, but most of the examples you’ll be testing it against won’t need a more stringent examination, anywy. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/90 "2009-01-05T11:54:04Z")
A serious entry - Eragon. Has magic powers, learns to be a master swordsman in weeks, is adored by everyone, has a dragon which seems to only exist to make him uber and he is always right. He’s also very clearly a wish-fulfillment device for the author (Publisher: “did you know he was only 15 when he wrote the first book!” :rolleyes:). Less serious suggestion but one that I think could do with a bit of examination - Harry Potter. Magic is a bit irrelevant as he lives in a community of magic users, but he’s forever finding he has new powers and abilities that others don’t (even if they’re explained and/or important to the plot), masters things really easily (quidditch anyone?), triumphs over every and any adversity sometimes even inadvertently, gets the girl, and everyone who dislikes him (other than Snape) is by definition evil. Any thoughts on that one? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/91 "2009-01-05T12:21:25Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Less serious suggestion but one that I think could do with a bit of examination - Harry Potter. Magic is a bit irrelevant as he lives in a community of magic users, but he’s forever finding he has new powers and abilities that others don’t (even if they’re explained and/or important to the plot), masters things really easily (quidditch anyone?), triumphs over every and any adversity sometimes even inadvertently, gets the girl, and everyone who dislikes him (other than Snape) is by definition evil. Any thoughts on that one? I find Harry Potter to be close to a Mary Sue on first brush but as you peel back the layers the similarity is due him being created as a wish-fulfillment character for children rather than the author. Also as the books progress he might be at the center of everything but he’s not the best or always right. So he might be an obnoxious twirp who the world revolves around, always gets his way, and gets everything he wants in the end but its due to the author thinking kids would want that (and being right) rather than the author wanting it. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/92 "2009-01-05T12:49:01Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > OK, yeah, that’s probably going overboard. But typical of Claremont. Cyclops and Havok couldn’t JUST be orphans, they had to be the kids of the GREATEST SPACE PIRATE IN THE UNIVERSE! Storm couldn’t just be an orphan worshipped by a small African tribe, she had to be the female equivalent of the Artful Dodger, complete with thief’s guild, evil telepathic mutants, etc. Colossus couldn’t just be a farm-boy from the USSR, his big brother had to be a super-secret spy and cosmonaut. And off comics, the **Spenser** books by whatshisname. Robert Parker. He’s a gourmet cook He’s tough as nails. He can espouse on art/music/etc. He’s got street-level friends, is pals with thugs, buddy-buddy with mafia-types, but can seamlessly insinuate himself into academic settings or high society. (Key point)His girlfriend is 100% faithful to him, but doesn’t mind if he sleeps around. Every guy who’s not trying to kill him wants to be him and every girl who’s not trying to kill him (and some who do) want to be WITH him. His “flaws” are that he’s just TOO stubborn and loyal and that he’s too, TOO good for this sorry world of ours. :rolleyes: I liked the first few books, but it got dull fast. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/93 "2009-01-05T13:23:16Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > (Key point)His girlfriend is 100% faithful to him, but doesn’t mind if he sleeps around. > I liked the first few books, but it got dull fast. I’ll grant you that some of the books are dull, and unless some major change is made, I won’t even buy them in hardback anymore. However, at one point, Susan decided to pursue an internship in Washington, which meant being separated from Spenser. She entered into a relationship with someone else, which turned into a disaster. Spenser ended up rescuing her, which is surprising considering that she’s supposed to be this strong, independent woman. They’ve been monogamous ever since. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/94 "2009-01-05T13:28:23Z")
Are you sure? I vaguely remember her leaving him and Spenser going into oh-so-manly pieces and then rescuing her but I would swear that their deal is “She cannot have sex with anyone but him. He can have sex, but not anything emotional with anyone he wants.” (and it’s her ‘rule’) Or maybe you’re referring to something that happened after I quit reading the series–there was one point where she left him because he was just SO powerful and strong that he was suffocating her with his wonderfulness. The “Spenser gets free sex but Susan doesn’t” thing came after that. But I don’t remember an internship. This was within a few books after the “Spenser helps the gay kid BECOME A MAN by building a cabin in the mountains” book (which I actually really enjoyed). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/95 "2009-01-05T13:44:44Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > I find Harry Potter to be close to a Mary Sue on first brush but as you peel back the layers the similarity is due him being created as a wish-fulfillment character for children rather than the author. Mary Sue / Gary Stu characters are not always wish fulfillment for the author. They are characters without significant flaw andf unusual abilities who are always right. Your own description of Harry Potter pretty much nails him down as a Gary Stu. And to be honest I’m embarassed I hadn’t thought of him earlier; he’s a very obvious example. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/96 "2009-01-05T14:30:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Mary Sue / Gary Stu characters are not always wish fulfillment for the author. They are characters without significant flaw andf unusual abilities who are always right. Your own description of Harry Potter pretty much nails him down as a Gary Stu. > > And to be honest I’m embarassed I hadn’t thought of him earlier; he’s a very obvious example. But that’s ridiculous. Harry Potter is a character in a children’s book. They’re all like that. It doesn’t make him a Mary Sue, it makes him a character in a book meant for 8 year olds. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/97 "2009-01-05T14:46:37Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > But that’s ridiculous. Harry Potter is a character in a children’s book. They’re all like that. It doesn’t make him a Mary Sue, it makes him a character in a book meant for 8 year olds. That’s a good point in general, although the books are clearly aimed higher than that. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/98 "2009-01-05T14:48:56Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That’s a good point in general, although the books are clearly aimed higher than that. Not the first one, which is what establishes Harry’s specialness. Not to mention the fact that being the “chosen one” automatically makes you pretty damn important and more likely to gain other powers that build off of the “chosen one” moniker. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/99 "2009-01-05T15:02:35Z")
\*\*Illuminatiprimus \*\*is dead-on about Eragon, though. Good for his parents for self-publishing; there’s a reason that no publishers would take that on until after their wildly successful self-promotion. Derivative, Mary Sue-filled dreck, that. I also nominate Ender. He seems a pretty obvious wish-fulfillment for Orson Scott Card. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/100 "2009-01-05T23:14:23Z")
> [@CaerieD](#): > > Willow Rosenberg. > > Oh good God. > > So she’s a gorgeous thin, creamy skinned redhead who is completely and utterly unaware of her own beauty. She’s a genius computer hacker who picks up every other unusual and needed skill in the series. She’s an occult expert by the end of the series. Witch so powerful she nearly destroys the world and _after_ taking a serious hit to her magic so as to not go all kookoo world destroying again is still powerful enough to forever alter the entire concept of a Slayer. She murders a man for vengeance and is never brought to justice for it (while another character who _accidentally_ killed someone went to prison). She sets up her own little CSI lab at one point to test hamburgers for traces of human blood. Her exboyfriend, the cool older man and lead guitarist in a band, fell in love with her at first sight, then had to leave town forever when he couldn’t have her. Her girlfriend whom she magically manipulated and essentially gave her mystical roofies to make her forget their fights took her back anyway, and then died tragically in her arms. Everyone loves her and wants her. > > Men, women, rats. Yeah, but, she’s hardly portrayed as flawless, and her flaws go way beyond “clumsiness”, or the usual “Oh, I’m too thin and my breasts are so unnaturally large” sort of Mary Sue “flaws”. As you point out, she turned evil and tried to _destroy the world_. And even before that, Giles called her an irresponsible little twit (or words to that effect). I mean, I might agree that over the course of the series she manages to get away with doing some pretty seriously questionable stuff, but I don’t think she’s a Mary Sue _per se_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642.md?page=6)