# Mary Sue characters **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 2, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642 "2009-01-02T23:16:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/101 "2009-01-05T23:45:00Z")
The Rhapsody character from Elizabeth Haydon’s _Symphony of Ages_ series definitely qualifies as a Mary Sue, down to the classic supposedly-plain-but-every-man-gets-an-erection-just-looking-at-her syndrome (described literally in multiple volumes). ---
**Author:** ![Monstera\_deliciosa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monstera_deliciosa/32/109_2.png) [@Monstera\_deliciosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstera_deliciosa)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/102 "2009-01-06T00:08:27Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Are you sure? I vaguely remember her leaving him and Spenser going into oh-so-manly pieces and then rescuing her but I would swear that their deal is “She cannot have sex with anyone but him. He can have sex, but not anything emotional with anyone he wants.” (and it’s her ‘rule’) > > Or maybe you’re referring to something that happened after I quit reading the series–there was one point where she left him because he was just SO powerful and strong that he was suffocating her with his wonderfulness. The “Spenser gets free sex but Susan doesn’t” thing came after that. But I don’t remember an internship. This was within a few books after the “Spenser helps the gay kid BECOME A MAN by building a cabin in the mountains” book (which I actually really enjoyed). I’m sure. I’ve read them all, and I don’t recall the double-standard you mention. Spenser hasn’t had sex with anyone except Susan since the 11th book in the series. The series is now up to book number 36. He is occasionally tempted, but has decided that true love must be monogamous. (Yes, the novels can be tiresome on several levels, but I can’t resist them.) ETA: The kid in the novel you mention is not gay–he has had relationships with women in subsequent novels. He is based on one of Parker’s sons though, and interestingly enough both of Parker’s sons are gay. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/103 "2009-01-06T00:10:12Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Less serious suggestion but one that I think could do with a bit of examination - Harry Potter. Magic is a bit irrelevant as he lives in a community of magic users, but he’s forever finding he has new powers and abilities that others don’t (even if they’re explained and/or important to the plot), masters things really easily (quidditch anyone?), triumphs over every and any adversity sometimes even inadvertently, gets the girl, and everyone who dislikes him (other than Snape) is by definition evil. Any thoughts on that one? He’s always making mistakes, which he beats himself up over, and Rowling sometimes bends over backward to portray him as a typical high-strung hot-tempered self-centered insecure teenage male asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/104 "2009-01-06T00:17:40Z")
Harry Potter isn’t the Mary Sue - Hermione is. Super-intelligent, never wrong, apparently dowdy, gets the guy in the end. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/105 "2009-01-06T01:03:04Z")
I can’t take credit for the wording here, because I believe I picked it up from another Mary Sue thread here on the SDMB, but reading a **Kay Scarpetta** novel is the literary equivalent of watching **Patricia Cornwell** masturbate in front of a mirror. Also the kid from **Eragon**. Everything that’s grating to me about Ender Wiggin, writ large. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/106 "2009-01-06T01:20:30Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Harry Potter isn’t the Mary Sue - Hermione is. Super-intelligent, never wrong, apparently dowdy, gets the guy in the end. I was going to argue that myself, although I wouldn’t want to insult Hermione with the term. She is smart, but not overly beautiful, and she ends up with Ron at the end. I don’t think any of the Harry Potter characters are one-dimensional…hell, even Voldemort had layers. ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/107 "2009-01-06T01:27:25Z")
As annoying as Hermoine can be, she does get called out for being an insufferable know-it-all. (By Snape, but still. 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/108 "2009-01-06T03:04:33Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Harry Potter isn’t the Mary Sue - Hermione is. Super-intelligent, never wrong, apparently dowdy, gets the guy in the end. Also, Viktor Krum, the international Quidditch star, fell for her hard. That falls on the Mary Sue side. But in the end, she “got” Ron, pretty regular nice guy. Not a Mary Suish thing. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/109 "2009-01-06T03:36:25Z")
Gotta dispute the idea that Death from _Sandman_ is a Mary Sue - she may or may not wield great power, but she is pretty powerless plot-wise in the series, and the issue with Element Girl reveals some stark character flaws. Of course, everyone still loves her, but you need more than that to be a Mary Sue. ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/110 "2009-01-06T04:34:06Z")
Richard #$@!% Rahl from “The Sword of Truth” series. Even though he doesn’t even know how to use his powers he still out- everythings everyone else. Even after seeing several ‘prophecies’ fulfilled he still runs around spouting about you can’t trust prophecies. And then he’s made to be right. Terrible writing, terrible character (and Kahlan). I gave up on the series after book four and I hate not knowing how a story ends. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/111 "2009-01-06T10:59:39Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > But in the end, she “got” Ron, pretty regular nice guy. Not a Mary Suish thing. Exactly what I was going to say, I’m not sure snagging a gangly, slightly comic relief ginger really qualifies as Mary Sue wish fulfillment (unless Rowling has some very weird tastes in men…). Anyway, I just wanted to throw HP out there and I think we can agree that whilst he skirts MS territory occasionally (particularly in the first book) he’s too complex a character, flaws and all, to be one. ---
**Author:** ![Westrogothia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@Westrogothia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Westrogothia)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/112 "2009-01-06T11:55:06Z")
I always thought anakin was a mary sue. Or at least a self insert by Lucas. Maybe thats why the little runt is so annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Electric\_Warrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Electric\_Warrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Warrior)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/113 "2009-01-06T12:09:43Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Are there any “bad Mary Sues”? Characters who are stand-ins for the author but are villians? I don’t operate on the ‘stand in for the author’ definition of Mary Sue, but there are Evil Sues. Mary Sue villains are attractive, witty, extremely powerful to the point of being more or less invincible, make life a living hell for the protagonist, and can generally only be defeated by either some plot quirk or loophole…or by finally seeing the light and joining the good guys. Some of them also have angsty pasts that explain their villainhood. I’m showing my geek side here but I think Shadow the Hedgehog from the Sonic Adventure series is one of these. (However, character depth is not one of my requirements for the enjoyment of Sonic the Hedgehog video games.) ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/114 "2009-01-06T13:08:02Z")
> [@G0sp3l](#): > > Richard #$@!% Rahl from “The Sword of Truth” series. Even though he doesn’t even know how to use his powers he still out- everythings everyone else. Even after seeing several ‘prophecies’ fulfilled he still runs around spouting about you can’t trust prophecies. And then he’s made to be right. Terrible writing, terrible character (and Kahlan). I gave up on the series after book four and I hate not knowing how a story ends. Word. For a while I kept up with the series just to see if it was possible for each succeeding book to actually be worse than its predecessor. Then it became Objectivist pr0n and I could bear no more. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/115 "2009-01-06T13:14:25Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > I thought a Mary Sue had to be a stand in for the author and his/her own bizzaro fantasies? > > I nominate the main character from the Twilight Series. I haven’t read the whole first book, but my sister in law was reading passages of it too us when she was in town for the holidays. She was reading it because a friend forced her, and found the book to be alternately disturbing and hilarious because the main character was such an obvious stand in for the authors desires. Wow, we must have the same FOAF. ‘Mary Sue’ is the first thing I thought when I read Twilight. She’s perfect in almost every way. Light years ahead of the juvenile high-schoolers around her. Her only flaw (clumsiness) serves only to make her more endearing. _vomit_. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/116 "2009-01-06T13:20:42Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Harry Potter isn’t the Mary Sue - Hermione is. Super-intelligent, never wrong, apparently dowdy, gets the guy in the end. I’m gonna have to disagree on that one. She’s not the protagonist, and the guy she gets in the end isn’t the protagonist. She’s super-intelligent, but that generally doesn’t cause the other characters to like her - at best they tolerate that she’s a nerd. I’d say Harry is the author surrogate… very carefully concealed, but there nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/117 "2009-01-06T15:00:34Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > I’m gonna have to disagree on that one. She’s not the protagonist, and the guy she gets in the end isn’t the protagonist. She’s super-intelligent, but that generally doesn’t cause the other characters to like her - at best they tolerate that she’s a nerd. I’d say Harry is the author surrogate… very carefully concealed, but there nonetheless. The only possible culprit I see in Harry Potter is Tonks. She’s flawless, and suddenly becomes very important despite being extremely underwritten. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/118 "2009-01-06T15:32:05Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Or maybe you’re referring to something that happened after I quit reading the series–there was one point where she left him because he was just SO powerful and strong that he was suffocating her with his wonderfulness. The “Spenser gets free sex but Susan doesn’t” thing came after that. But I don’t remember an internship. This was within a few books after the “Spenser helps the gay kid BECOME A MAN by building a cabin in the mountains” book (which I actually really enjoyed). The internship happened after you stopped reading, and it spanned more than one book, so this would be something you’d remember. Also, Paul Giacomin, who debuts in _Early Autumn_ and who becomes a recurring character, isn’t gay. The boy in _God Save the Child_, which is the second book in the series, may have been, and in fact was living with a gay bodybuilder. (That is also where Susan makes her debut; she was the boy’s guidance counselor.) I suspect you’re conflating the two. Of course, Paul _is_ an unmarried dancer, so he fits the stereotype, but he’s straight. I’ve belonged to several Spenser groups, and there has been some grousing about Susan. She’s effectively a one-dimensional character who doesn’t add that much to the story. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/119 "2009-01-06T16:00:11Z")
The quintessential example of this, the modern apotheosis of the phenomenon, is Shyamalan’s movie _Lady in the Water._ Shyamalan prominently features in the story a writer character who is a genius, and whose works will inspire leaders and bring peace to the world, which is why the evil forces (including a critic) want to block his influence and shut him down. And then Shyamalan _casts himself in this role._ It’s absolutely hilarious. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/120 "2009-01-06T16:14:28Z")
How about one from a screenwriter? I admit that I haven’t seen the movie, but from what I’ve heard alone, M. Night Shyamalan’s character in **Lady In The Water** is a total Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Even worse, he not only wrote the story and directed the movie, he cast himself in the role! Here’s some comments culled from IMDB user reviews, screened for spoilers just in case someone gets irked: Shyamalan plays the role of an author, misunderstood in his time, who will one day influence a boy destined to become the president of the United States. Self-fulfilling prophecies, anyone? … And then you have the complete audacity of the man in casting himself as the man who will (essentially) write the second bible. … Shyamalan casts HIMSELF as a John the Baptist character who will inspire “a great leader who will change everything” from a hastily constructed presumable political treatise entitled, of all things, The Cookbook. I also understand that Shyamalan included in the movie a film critic who is wrong about everything and ends up getting horribly torn apart. Gee, I wonder if that’s supposed to mean anything. On preview: damn you, **Cervaise**! You got in ahead of me while I was looking for juicy quotes! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642.md?page=7)