# Mary Sue characters **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 2, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642 "2009-01-02T23:16:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/121 "2009-01-06T16:17:52Z")
_Ha_-ha! šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/122 "2009-01-06T20:03:37Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > On preview: damn you, **Cervaise**! You got in ahead of me while I was looking for juicy quotes! Publish or perish, **Max Torque**. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/123 "2009-01-06T20:37:41Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > Iā€™ve belonged to several Spenser groups, and there has been some grousing about Susan. Sheā€™s effectively a one-dimensional character who doesnā€™t add that much to the story. Weā€™re frequently told via exposition that itā€™s Susan that makes Spenser different than Hawk ā€“ that is, Spenserā€™s love for her is what gives him a humanity that Hawk lacks. I donā€™t agree that sheā€™s one-dimensional, though ā€“ she certainly has changed from the person she was in _Catskill Eagle_. Itā€™s true that we donā€™t explore her character in depth, but thenā€¦ itā€™s the _Spenser_ series, not the Susan Silverman series. My main gripe is that for a psychologist, sheā€™s remarkable in her lack of self-awareness. I donā€™t begrudge her her hang-ups and quirks, but it seems extraordinary to me that she cannot use even a tenth of the penetrating insight she has for others on herself. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/124 "2009-01-06T21:32:45Z")
As much as I love them, every female protagonist that Joss Whedon writes. I swear heā€™s a teenaged girl living out his empowerment fantasies. StG ---
**Author:** ![De\_La\_Rue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@De\_La\_Rue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/De_La_Rue)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/125 "2009-01-06T23:45:51Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Storm couldnā€™t just be an orphan worshipped by a small African tribe, she had to be the female equivalent of the Artful Dodger, complete with thiefā€™s guild, evil telepathic mutants, etc. Wait a minuteā€“there were evil telepathic mutants in _Oliver Twist_? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/126 "2009-01-07T00:09:56Z")
Sure, donā€™t you remember the song from the movie: _Who Will Buy ā€“ Oh, Never Mind; That Chap Over There Will_? ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/127 "2009-01-07T00:58:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Weā€™re frequently told via exposition that itā€™s Susan that makes Spenser different than Hawk ā€“ that is, Spenserā€™s love for her is what gives him a humanity that Hawk lacks. > > I donā€™t agree that sheā€™s one-dimensional, though ā€“ she certainly has changed from the person she was in _Catskill Eagle_. Itā€™s true that we donā€™t explore her character in depth, but thenā€¦ itā€™s the _Spenser_ series, not the Susan Silverman series. My main gripe is that for a psychologist, sheā€™s remarkable in her lack of self-awareness. I donā€™t begrudge her her hang-ups and quirks, but it seems extraordinary to me that she cannot use even a tenth of the penetrating insight she has for others on herself. That last point is why I think sheā€™s one-dimensional. We donā€™t know much about her; we know she was a high-school guidance counselor, and that she was married and divorced before she met Spenser. We donā€™t know about her childhood or her first husband until _Sudden Mischief_, which came out in 1998, some 24 years after they first meet in _God Save the Child_. Sheā€™s good for some advice here and there, but it seems that all they do together is eat, drink and fuck. Hawkā€™s mystery gives him depth. We know he was in the French Foreign Legion, and we know he was a boxer. We also know he can shift from ghetto English to Harvard in a heartbeat. We know heā€™s not telling anyone anything, for whatever reason. In fact, Iā€™d rather not know the details of his life. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/128 "2009-01-07T06:15:52Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > I nominate the main character from the Twilight Series. I havenā€™t read the whole first book, but my sister in law was reading passages of it too us when she was in town for the holidays. She was reading it because a friend forced her, and found the book to be alternately disturbing and hilarious because the main character was such an obvious stand in for the authors desires. > > We played an awesome bibliomancy drinking game with the book and then she read some of her ā€œfavoriteā€ bits out loud. Good times were had by all. Ha, sounds like my weekend! My friendā€™s teenage half-sister LOVES the series, and my friend managed to borrow her copy. I doubt sheā€™d have agreed if she knew we were just going to make fun of it. šŸ†’ We took turns reading aloud, with commentary. (Her husband kept saying he wished he had a tape recorder, but sadly we have no record of the event.) Several times we laughed so hard we cried, and at one point my friend actually fell off the couch! We got through seven or eight chapters over the course of the weekend, and _Twilight_ now holds the title of Worst Book Iā€™ve Ever Partially Read. Iā€™d kind of like to finish it someday just for the sake of finishing it, but since Iā€™m sure it doesnā€™t end the same way as _Bonnie & Clyde_ I know Iā€™m not going to enjoy it. Bella Swan is not only a Mary Sue, but apparently even the guy playing Edward in the new movie [thinks so](http://community.livejournal.com/i_hate_twilight/99890.html). ā€œWhen I read it, it seemed likeā€¦I was convinced thatā€¦Stephenie wasā€¦convinced that she was Bella.ā€ ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/129 "2009-01-07T07:11:11Z")
> [@G0sp3l](#): > > Richard #$@!% Rahl from ā€œThe Sword of Truthā€ series. Even though he doesnā€™t even know how to use his powers he still out- everythings everyone else. Even after seeing several ā€˜propheciesā€™ fulfilled he still runs around spouting about you canā€™t trust prophecies. And then heā€™s made to be right. Terrible writing, terrible character (and Kahlan). I gave up on the series after book four and I hate not knowing how a story ends. Iā€™ll tell you. Richard becomes a god. Banishes everyone who disagrees with him to Earth. The End. No seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/130 "2009-01-07T07:16:57Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Bella Swan is not only a Mary Sue, but apparently even the guy playing Edward in the new movie [thinks so](http://community.livejournal.com/i_hate_twilight/99890.html). ā€œWhen I read it, it seemed likeā€¦I was convinced thatā€¦Stephenie wasā€¦convinced that she was Bella.ā€ It seems like the actor playing Edward (Robert Pattinson) has made more than one comment to the media that was likely not approved by the movie producers. From an interview with [_Empire_ magazine](http://io9.com/5096763/twilight-makes-for-the-best-fanwank-ever): > [@Robert Pattinson](#): > > ā€œWhen you read the book,ā€ says Pattinson, looking appropriately pallid and interesting even without makeup, ā€œitā€™s like, ā€˜Edward Cullen was so beautiful I creamed myself.ā€™ I mean, every line is like that. Heā€™s the most ridiculous person whoā€™s so amazing at everything. I think a lot of actors tried to play that aspect. I just couldnā€™t do that. And the more I read the script, the more I hated this guy, so thatā€™s how I played him, as a manic-depressive who hates himself. Plus, heā€™s a 108-year-old virgin so heā€™s obviously got some issues there.ā€ ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/131 "2009-01-07T10:20:15Z")
Iā€™m starting to forgive Robert Pattinson for being in that movie. šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/132 "2009-01-07T11:37:07Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Harry Potter isnā€™t the Mary Sue - Hermione is. Super-intelligent, never wrong, apparently dowdy, gets the guy in the end. Plus Iā€™m pretty sure Iā€™ve heard Rowling compare herself to Hermione in an interview. As far as Hermione being ā€œnot overly beautifulā€, didnā€™t she get a magical makeover at some point? ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/133 "2009-01-07T11:41:19Z")
I agree that Harry canā€™t really count as a Gary Stu or whatever. Like someone said, the first book is set up as a wish fullfillment scenario, but Harry himself isnā€™t particularly perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/134 "2009-01-07T15:17:08Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > As far as Hermione being ā€œnot overly beautifulā€, didnā€™t she get a magical makeover at some point? She shrank her front teeth. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/135 "2009-01-07T15:33:59Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > She shrank her front teeth. Actually, I believe Madame Pomfrey did the actual dentistry. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/136 "2009-01-07T16:37:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, thereā€™s the fishwife from _Atlas Shrugged_, briefly but obviously a stand-in for Ayn Rand herself. Dominique from **the Fountainhead** is a more prominent Mary Sue character, and definitely Randā€™s wish-fulfillment version of herself - statuesque, strikingly beautiful, the object of every manā€™s lustful desires, and embroiled in a passionate affair with a smoldering, virile redhead who only she is smart enough to realize is the greatest genius of their time. Whatā€™s kind of disturbing is the secondary character in the same book named Cathy. Sheā€™s a mousy, pathetic doormat whom the narration describes as (paraphrasing) ā€œshort, drab, unremarkable, with a pudgy ethnic (European) face and an awkward smile.ā€ Something kind of like [this](http://dimpost.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/ayn_rand1.jpg). Evidently, Rand was working through some self-esteem issues at the time. Other ā€œMary Suesā€: Jonathan from ā€œBuffy the Vampire Slayerā€ featured in an episode that parodied the Mary Sue phenom. But I always suspected that Joss Whedon as a teenager mightā€™ve been a bit like Xander Harrisā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![SpasticKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@SpasticKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpasticKitty)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/137 "2009-01-07T18:22:14Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Ha, sounds like my weekend! My friendā€™s teenage half-sister LOVES the series, and my friend managed to borrow her copy. I doubt sheā€™d have agreed if she knew we were just going to make fun of it. šŸ†’ We took turns reading aloud, with commentary. (Her husband kept saying he wished he had a tape recorder, but sadly we have no record of the event.) Several times we laughed so hard we cried, and at one point my friend actually fell off the couch! > > We got through seven or eight chapters over the course of the weekend, and _Twilight_ now holds the title of Worst Book Iā€™ve Ever Partially Read. Iā€™d kind of like to finish it someday just for the sake of finishing it, but since Iā€™m sure it doesnā€™t end the same way as _Bonnie & Clyde_ I know Iā€™m not going to enjoy it. > > Bella Swan is not only a Mary Sue, but apparently even the guy playing Edward in the new movie [thinks so](http://community.livejournal.com/i_hate_twilight/99890.html). ā€œWhen I read it, it seemed likeā€¦I was convinced thatā€¦Stephenie wasā€¦convinced that she was Bella.ā€ Iā€™ll admit to liking the Twilight books (and no, I am not a teenage girl), but as I read through the whole series Bellaā€™s Mary Sue-edness became more and more apparent. Especially in _Breaking Dawn_, the fourth book, where she becomes not only a vampire, but the awesomest vampire, like, ever. The author spent the whole third book explaining how newborn vampires have no self-control when confronted with the scent of human blood and therefore cannot be around people without becoming CRAZED BLOODSUCKING KILLERZZZ!! Bella the Vampire, however, is so good and awesome and perfect that she just completely skips that stage of vampirehood and conveniently has no problem around people like her father who, conveniently, doesnā€™t care about her vampire lifestyle. Of course, her vampire family is amazed and awed at the incredible awesomeness of her self-control. And her newfound vampire superpowers help her protect her family in the EPIC VAMPIRE BATTLE!! I couldnā€™t help laughing during the one scene in the meadow where everyone is thrusting their ā€œsupernatural powersā€ back and forth at each other because it reminded me of the episode of South Park where Cartman thinks heā€™s a psychic and ā€œbattlesā€ with another group of fake psychics. It was just that ridiculous. That link was really funny too. I canā€™t believe thereā€™s a whole livejournal community dedicated to hating Twilight! šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/138 "2009-01-07T19:01:56Z")
I am very happy to see so much hate for Twilight. If I taught english in Middle or high school, I would make it a mandatory read aloud to discuss just WHAT THE FUCK IS SO VERY WRONG WITH THIS BOOK! I think it would be a very educational experience. Edward, the vegan vampire, is sooooooo dreamy! ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/139 "2009-01-07T19:24:57Z")
I recently read [this book](http://www.amazon.com/King-Methlehem-Novel-Mark-Lindquist/dp/1416535780/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231354607&sr=8-1). In his non-authoring life, the author is a prosecutor in Pierce County who had spent time in drug court. In the books, there are two protagonists. Protagonist #1 is a detective who went to law school, but decided to go into police work because itā€™s more ā€œvisceral.ā€ Heā€™s 40ish, but looks 30-something. His flaw is that heā€™s too focused on his job. Heā€™s works alone on the job because no one is as focused as he is. Heā€™s dating a beautiful, 20-something stripper with a heart-of-gold (but she reads! really! philosophy books that she doesnā€™t understand, so she asks Protagonist 1, her personal font of all knowledge, to explain all that hard theology, philosophy, and science to her. 'cause heā€™s just so smart.) She desperately wants him to commit to her, but heā€™s too focused on his job to notice that his girlfriend wants a commitment. His girlfriend is not alone in seeing how brilliant he is - because everyone he meets (and people he doesnā€™t) think that heā€™s the smartest, most brilliant man ever - with the possible exception ofā€¦ Protagonist #2 who is a prosecutor. With the same initials as the author. Heā€™s too committed. He used to play in a band, that broke up because the other people just werenā€™t as committed as he is. So now, he was forced to be a lone wolf, who was fully committed to work. So committed that he just doesnā€™t have time for the women who fling themselves at him right and left. The two of them go around being dedicated and committed to their respective jobs ā€¦and fight crime. Like many Garys, if the rest of the book had been well written, the characters might have been excusable. But it wasnā€™t. And they arenā€™t. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/140 "2009-01-07T22:19:24Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > If I taught english in Middle or high school, I would make it a mandatory read aloud to discuss just WHAT THE FUCK IS SO VERY WRONG WITH THIS BOOK! As a middle school teacher, believe me, we talk about it. Many of them do see the books for what they are. However, many of them looooove it because everyone else loooooves it. It does not bear much thinking on, but they are not really thinking on it yet. I think, in a couple of years, they will look back on Twilight and realize, ā€œWow, how did I ever really think that was good? Ah, youth!ā€ or whatever the teen equivalent of that is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642.md?page=8)