# Mary Sue characters **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 2, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642 "2009-01-02T23:16:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/161 "2009-01-09T15:26:52Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Psst. Edminster. Nope, it’s Elminster. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/162 "2009-01-09T15:33:47Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > I think he’s a munchkin, not a Mary Sue. 😉 > > (Elmunchkin… er… Elminster on the other hand Greenwood has pretty much admitted it.) Ohhh, he’s a Mary Sue, all right. The only non-evil Drow who’s never lost a fight, uniquely colored eyes that let him walk in the daytime, two named swords, an animal companion, befriends all manner of other species, carries around a ton of angst…he’s just the most perfectalist beautiful unique snowflake that exists. Elminster’s possibly the only one who surpasses him, but at least Elminster has a little depth to his character and Greenwood writes a little better than Salvatore. To be fair, though, just about every RPG character ever created by players has been a Mary Sue, and Salvatore is essentially a player (Greenwood is also basically credited with creating Forgotten Realms, so I give him extra leniency on Elminster). There are some folks who design their characters realistically, true, but for the most part every player-created character is the hero of the story and is a unique and special snowflake in some way. (ETA: I think he’s saying Edminster 'cause, you know, Ed Greenwood.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/163 "2009-01-09T16:03:17Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > You need to re-read. 🙂 Ginny is a _playa_. I agree that Ginny is way underdeveloped (boring) for how important she is supposed to be. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/164 "2009-01-09T16:07:58Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Ohhh, he’s a Mary Sue, all right. The only non-evil Drow who’s never lost a fight, uniquely colored eyes that let him walk in the daytime, two named swords, an animal companion, befriends all manner of other species, carries around a ton of angst…he’s just the most perfectalist beautiful unique snowflake that exists. Elminster’s possibly the only one who surpasses him, but at least Elminster has a little depth to his character and Greenwood writes a little better than Salvatore. Another clue to Driz’zt’s Mary-Sueism is that in official game materials (i.e., not written by Salvatore), Driz’zt is recognized as a fan favorite, but he’s not some kind of ebony demiurge. There are (well, were…I hate 4th Ed. Forgotten Realms and refuse to recognize its existence) plenty of much more powerful people in Faerun: Khelben Blackstaff, Elminster, some of the Seven Sisters (Alustriel, the Simbul), any number of Thayan zulkirs… ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/165 "2009-01-09T16:17:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I think it doesn’t really matter. The rule for comedy is “is it funny ?”; if a “Mary Sue” type character is funny, then it’s good humor writing. > > As for Retief; a lot of his successes are part of the humor. And a lot of it isn’t even his doing; like when he withstands Groaci “torture” that consists of things like getting sprayed with scent or being shown blots of color. Traumatizes the Groaci next to him, but it’s about as effective as the Comfy Char on a human. But the Groaci are just convinced he’s stoic. Or the bit where he impresses a clan of aliens with how badass he is by easily passing all of their initiation tests ( which are all trivial for a human ), while actually **getting** to each initiation challenge is much more dangerous (which they haven’t a clue of ). Retief is definitely an Author Avatar, but i don’t think he started out as a Mary Sue. If you read the old collections of short stories, he had real flaws and a definite progression. He was an action oriented military person put in bureaucracy and it showed. He got in trouble and was out of his depth at times. The early short stories would show him getting better at working and circumventing the system as he got older and more experienced and as his sponsor mentor got better at protecting him and letting him get things done. When Laumer started writing novels, he froze him at a point early in his career, but with all his knowledge, experience, and abilities already in place. He also became not only his home planet’s highest ranking military officer (earned before he joined the CDT), but some sort of high ranking noble. This freeze also relegated Magnan to permenant comic relief. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/166 "2009-01-09T16:42:35Z")
It’s somewhat bizarre that Miyamoto Musashi would be approximately 100% Mary Sue if he hadn’t existed. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/167 "2009-01-09T16:52:15Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > I think, in a couple of years, they will look back on Twilight and realize, “Wow, how did I ever really think that was good? Ah, youth!” or whatever the teen equivalent of that is. Don’t be so certain. My older sister, who delights in shockingly terrible lit, owns a book from the 80s called [“Easy Connections”](http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Connections-Liz-Berry/dp/0575032456) by Liz Berry. It is Twilight times ten. The heroine is Cathy. Her love interest is Dev, and he is an abusive, rapist stalker who obviously suffers from borderline personality disorder (in the sequel, he attempts suicide when Cathy leaves him). There are women who read this book as teens, and are now in their 30s and still gushing about how \*romantic \*Dev is, and how they wish that \*they \*were Cathy, and how can she even think of leaving him? Some people just never grow out of that mindset I guess. Actually, Cathy’s quite the Mary Sue herself. She’s one of the greatest painters in the world, and is so beautiful that Dev knows he must have her from the moment he sees her. He rapes her, and they become mystically bonded, and can communicate telepathically. The author said that she was trying to write a book about how women are forced into domestic roles and must give up their dreams, but every page screams, “I want to be Cathy and have Dev rape and fall in love with MEEEEEEEeeeee!” ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/168 "2009-01-09T17:39:39Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Another clue to Driz’zt’s Mary-Sueism is that in official game materials (i.e., not written by Salvatore), Driz’zt is recognized as a fan favorite, but he’s not some kind of ebony demiurge. There are (well, were…I hate 4th Ed. Forgotten Realms and refuse to recognize its existence) plenty of much more powerful people in Faerun: Khelben Blackstaff, Elminster, some of the Seven Sisters (Alustriel, the Simbul), any number of Thayan zulkirs… The clue to both of their Gary Stu’ness is in whom they have or are banging. Cattie Fromage broke up with her bohunk boyfriend just so the author could have her do Drizzt. = Gary Stu. Edminster has banged goddesses (which gives him special magical powers; +1 for that!), and just about all of the Seven Sisters – many of whom he raised from infancy (more bonus points for the creepy). _And_ he looks like the author, who likes to dress up as his alter ego at conventions. = uber Gary Stu. The key is the wish fulfillment, which the authorial universe twists itself into knots to accomplish. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/169 "2009-01-09T17:59:04Z")
The Tyrant of Jupiter is a Gary Stu for Piers Anthony; I’m certain of it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/170 "2009-01-09T18:05:09Z")
If Anthony had been an illegal immigrant from Latin America, I would totally agree. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/171 "2009-01-09T18:12:58Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > If Anthony had been an illegal immigrant from Latin America, I would totally agree. He was a questionably legal infant immigrant from England, wasn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/172 "2009-01-09T21:04:30Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Nope, it’s Elminster. I wasn’t correcting your spelling of _that_ name. The other one. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/173 "2009-01-10T00:21:30Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Ohhh, he’s a Mary Sue, all right. Of course he is, but let me have my little joke. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/174 "2009-01-12T17:42:22Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Actually, I believe Madame Pomfrey did the actual dentistry. True, but she didn’t know that she was cosmetically improving Hermione’s teeth. She thought she was just reversing Malfoy’s curse. The more I think about it, the more I believe that the sole reason for this little episode was so that Emma Watson wouldn’t have to wear tooth prosthetics as she grew into adolescent hottitude. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/175 "2009-01-12T19:37:46Z")
Rob Zombie’s remake of [Halloween](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373883/) struck me as his own ‘Mary Sue’ tale - his fantasy of being an unstoppable, badass killer. This suppostioni is based largely on the fact that Zombie makes his version of [Michael Myers](http://images.teamsugar.com/files/upl1/1/10592/22_2008/hall1.jpg) look very similar to [himself](http://www.connietalk.com/rob_zombie.jpg) (only much more buff.) The fact that Zombie had his real-life wife play the part of Michael’s pole-dancing stripper mother adds a creepy layer of freudianism that did not in any way improve the story. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/176 "2009-01-12T19:48:36Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > The more I think about it, the more I believe that the sole reason for this little episode was so that Emma Watson wouldn’t have to wear tooth prosthetics as she grew into adolescent hottitude. Could be, but I always took it as characterization: even a goody-goody like Hermione could succumb to vanity when handed the chance on a silver platter. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/177 "2012-04-08T17:02:53Z")
Honor Harrington, from David Weber’s series. I really liked the “duel scene,” but it really pushes one’s willing suspension of disbelief. Is there anything she can’t do twice as well as the best experts? Of course, in addition to being the premier naval officer, she is also fabulously wealthy, has numerous royal titles bestowed upon her, and has a magical pet which gives her psychic abilities. Oh, and she can eat whatever she wants without getting fat. I agree about Jack Ryan. (One red flag of a Mary Sue is that the character is the same ethnicity as the author.) “Edeard” from Peter Hamilton’s Void Trilogy. (also known as “The Waterwalker”). He has far stronger psychic ability than anyone else. Every girl in town wants to have sex with him. Every time he gets into trouble, he discovers some new psychic ability which gets him out. His only flaw is his innocent naivite, which only makes him more endearing. And of course he is completely incorruptible. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/178 "2012-04-08T18:28:04Z")
A few others by male authors (yes, I know this used to be a three year old thread) :eek: James Woods’ character in the movie Salvador Jim Casey in The Grapes of Wrath The lead character in Bridges of Madison County ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/179 "2012-04-08T19:35:05Z")
Dr. Cherijo Grey Veil, in the novel _Stardoc_, by S. L. Viehl. Note the character’s last name, the last name of the author, and the fact that they’re both doctors. Cherijo’s got all the other aspects of a Mary Sue, too. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642/180 "2012-04-09T00:31:11Z")
Louis Wu from David Niven’s Ringworld books is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. His flaws are that he is a wire-head and cheese addict, both of which he can give up at will. He regularly out-smarts aliens with super intelligence without missing a beat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mary-sue-characters/479642.md?page=10)