# Marzy Dotes: once meaningful lyrics surviving as nonsense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 18, 2008, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734 "2008-12-18T12:46:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/1 "2008-12-18T12:46:36Z")
I wonder if this has ever happened. Lemme 'splain: When I was a kid, my dad would sing a nonsense song that went Marzy Dotes an Dozy Dots An little lamzydyevee Akiddlee eyveetoo Wuddnyoo? I honestly thought that was something he picked up from the natives during the war in Southeast Asia. And he indicated that he himself didn’t know what it meant. Until recently, he and I each separately realized: Mares eat oats and does eat oats And little lambs eat ivy . . . and so on. Now if I had never had that realization, but went on to sing such nonsense lyrics to my kid, and she to hers, eventually it would be a complete nonsense song that once meant something. Wait long enough, and even the original lyrics would be unintelligible to a latter day speaker. So are there any nursery rhymes or folk songs that have unwitting mangled lines in Occitan or whatever? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/2 "2008-12-18T12:57:30Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > So are there any nursery rhymes or folk songs that have unwitting mangled lines in Occitan or whatever? I read somewhere reasonably reputable (Reader’s Digest Book Of Interesting Shit You Didn’t Know But Can Bore People At Parties With or something similar) that there’s an Island in the North Sea or somewhere like that, which was occupied by British Soldiers during the Napoleonic Wars. The Islanders spoke one of the Scandinavian languages, but apparently still have a “nonsense” nursery rhyme phrase dating from that period that goes: _Jek og Jil vent op de hil/ent Jil com tamblin ofter_ (“Jack and Jill”, of course). Apparently Nursery Rhymes are really useful for Linguists and Language Detectives because they remain unchanged despite the passage of time; they get passed down as they were when they were first created even if they appear to be nonsense two centuries later. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/3 "2008-12-18T12:57:37Z")
If you had ever heard the actual song, “Mairzy Doats,” it explains itself. ---
**Author:** ![SurrenderDorothy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/surrenderdorothy/32/1221_2.png) [@SurrenderDorothy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SurrenderDorothy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/4 "2008-12-18T13:17:06Z")
Mairzy doats and dozey doats and little lambsy divey a kiddleeativytoo wouldn’t you? if the words sound queer or funny to your ear a little bit jumbled or jivey sing “mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy” ---
**Author:** ![Prelude\_to\_Fascination](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Prelude\_to\_Fascination](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prelude_to_Fascination)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/5 "2008-12-18T13:22:47Z")
Great. Now I’ve got that song stuck in my head. I’d also like to add that in my office, “jivey” will be the word of the day. I’m not sure in what context, but I’ll find some way to work into a conversation. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/6 "2008-12-18T13:40:16Z")
**Surrender Dorothy** is correct – the original song (which IIRC, dates from the 1940s or so) had an explanation of the lyrics. You just learned the first half. ---
**Author:** ![Ichbin\_Dubist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/51bf81/32.png) [@Ichbin\_Dubist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichbin_Dubist)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/7 "2008-12-18T14:12:37Z")
I’m sure there are any number of folk songs where the most common version is kind of garbled. The example that comes to mind is [Wildwood Flower](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildwood_Flower), where most versions contain at least a small dollop of nonsense, like “my mingles”: > [@](#): > > Although originally a parlor song, the song had undergone quite a bit of the folk process by the time the Carter Family recorded it. For example, the original first verse was: > > ``` > I'll twine 'mid the ringlets of my raven black hair, > The lilies so pale and the roses so fair, > The myrtle so bright with an emerald hue, > And the pale aronatus with eyes of bright blue. > > ``` > > The better-known Carter Family version begins: > > ``` > Oh, I'll twine with my mingles and waving black hair, > With the roses so red and the lilies so fair, > And the myrtle so bright with the emerald dew, > The pale and the leader and eyes look like blue. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/8 "2008-12-18T14:25:40Z")
From the time I was a child I always heard it as “Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy” to begin with. It wasn’t until I saw it written that I realized it was supposed to be nonsense words. But then, I was hearing my mother singing it, not the original record. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/9 "2008-12-18T16:43:13Z")
Some more info on it: [Mairzy Doats - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mairzy_Doats) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/10 "2008-12-18T17:45:01Z")
I just wanted to note that I first learned this song from Carol and Paula on [The Magic Garden](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magic_Garden_(TV_series)) out of WPIX in NYC. Every time I hear it or read the lyrics I can still see that show. ---
**Author:** ![Peanut\_Gallery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/838e76/32.png) [@Peanut\_Gallery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanut_Gallery)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/11 "2008-12-18T17:54:23Z")
The only record of this song in my mind is Leland Palmer singing it while dancing around the Great Northern Hotel. Poor Leland. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/12 "2008-12-18T18:32:44Z")
> [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > The only record of this song in my mind is Leland Palmer singing it while dancing around the Great Northern Hotel. > > Poor Leland. Yea, I learned this song from Twin Peaks as well. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/13 "2008-12-18T18:34:19Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Now if I had never had that realization, but went on to sing such nonsense lyrics to my kid, and she to hers, eventually it would be a complete nonsense song that once meant something. Wait long enough, and even the original lyrics would be unintelligible to a latter day speaker. My mother spent some time in Puerto Rico as a child, but never learned Spanish (French, yes, Spanish, no). She did pick up a nursery rhyme/child’s song that she taught to me & my sister. We did learn Spanish, and learned that the sounds she had taught us weren’t actually weren’t actually words in Spanish, especially since they started “Un bon matin” which made us think it was some kind of wake-up-in-the-morning song that had gotten garbled in through French & Puerto Rican Spanish to us. About a year ago, through the wonders of the internet, we stumbled upon the real song which is about “Don Martin” who got the measels and died. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/14 "2008-12-18T18:49:57Z")
Auld lange syne? ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/15 "2008-12-18T18:52:55Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > About a year ago, through the wonders of the internet, we stumbled upon the real song which is about “Don Martin” who got the measels and died. What strange noise do measles make? ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/16 "2008-12-18T18:54:19Z")
> [@mobo85](#): > > What strange noise do measles make? According to the song, “bo ro ro ro ro” ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/17 "2008-12-18T19:48:05Z")
re: nursery rhyme lyrics and whatnot whose original meaning got lost in the mists of antiquity… [possible Urban Legend alert] I have _heard_ that “eeny meeny miney moe” is a counting sequence akin to “one two three four”, and that so is “hickory dickory dock” (equiv to “ten eleven twelve” in this case). [UL alert] ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/18 "2008-12-19T01:58:48Z")
As we all learned in American history (at least until they truncated the early years to make room for everything that happened after WW2), “Yankee Doodle” was originally sung by the British to mock the ragtag Revolutionary troops – a “Doodle” being a fool or simpleton. And “macaroni” had nothing to do with pasta; it was a term for an overly dandified style of fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/19 "2008-12-19T02:27:14Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Some more info on it: [Mairzy Doats - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mairzy_Doats) I came in to mention that the idea came from **Cowzy tweet and sowzy tweet and liddle sharksy doisters**. I read the entry a while ago, when _Mairzy Doats_ was going through my brain. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734/20 "2008-12-19T02:36:27Z")
I’d wager 9/10 of American schoolchildren couldn’t translate _“Frère Jacques”_ for you, but it’s a ubiquitous children’s song in America. ETA: In fact, I always thought it funny that the English version is an announcement (“Morning bells are ringing!”) whereas the French version is a command (“Ring the morning bells!”) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marzy-dotes-once-meaningful-lyrics-surviving-as-nonsense/477734.md?page=2)