# Masons and The New World Order **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2002, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571 "2002-03-11T14:17:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Wisest\_Novel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wisest_novel/32/13329_2.png) [@Wisest\_Novel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wisest_Novel)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/41 "2002-03-13T20:50:48Z")
This thread has been a pretty good read. **Sweet Willy** , in particular, has done a fine job, although I’m not sure which job he’s been doing. Either he’s an excellent bear-baiter, or he jumped into this thread with both feet and had been backpedaling through the coals ever since. However, fun as the “Do the Masons rule the globe by controlling the Yakusa and KFC?” issue has been, I’m curious about the tidbit that Bin Laden & Co are sending secret Masonic symbols. Can **Sweet Willy** or anyone else provide any info as to what this communication might have been, or is it total hokum? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/42 "2002-03-13T20:51:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Here in the U.S. it seems everyone has decided that, indeed, the masons are entitled to thier little corner of corruption within the community and justice system. Ah, I think I see the problem. See, I’m not resigned to corruption of any sort, and I think witha critical readong of the posts in this thread you’ll not find a single person who justifies it (accepts as a matter of course, perhaps, but not justifies). It’s not a matter of the masons being corrupt, it’s _people_. All people have the potential for corruption, reagrdless of what club they might belong to. If Joe Senator is taking bribes, _whether or not he’s a Mason or an Elk or a Water Buffalo or a member of Skull and Bones is irrelevant_. In other words, no one here thinks that the Masons are “entitled” to corruption. > [@](#): > > Upon research you will discover that not everyone in the world has resigned to such. It has long been a problem in the UK that has been rebuffed again and again. It is an old topic but hey, you never know. Well sure. And ditto for Jews. And Pakistanis and Turks and Romany and blacks. And Freemasons, and the Trilateral Commission, and any of a hundred groups. See, people with shared interests or backgrounds talk to one another, cut deals with one another. Sometimes that turns into corruption in governement or business. But it’s the _fact_ of the shared identity that’s at issue–not the _nature_ of the shared identity. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/43 "2002-03-13T20:55:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* Makers Mark please. And by God I’ll find something! \*\* Mmm! Well, you may be a bit gullible where the conspiracy theorists are concerned, but you have good taste in liquor! ---
**Author:** ![Hiyruu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hiyruu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiyruu)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/44 "2002-03-13T22:36:00Z")
Probably the most prolific and respected masonic author is Albert Pike. His masterpiece " _Morals and Dogma_ has been drawn upon heavily by the modern masonic movement, and its doctrines are today part of the fabric of modern masonary. These are all direct quotes from _Morals and Dogma_. Let’s see what Pike had to say: > [@](#): > > “Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion.” (Morals and Dogma, p.213) Who said masonary wasn’t a religion? > [@](#): > > “The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry.” (Morals and Dogma, p.819) Intentionally mislead? Smells like a conspiracy to me. > [@](#): > > “It reverences all the great reformers. It sees in Moses, the Lawgiver of the Jesus, inConfucius and Zoroaster, in Jesus of Nazareth, and in the Arabian Iconoclast, Great Teachers of Morality, and Eminent Reformers, if no more:” (Morals and Dogma, p.525) Masonary is not only christian. > [@](#): > > "The first Masonic Legislator whose memory is preserved to us by history, was Buddha,…(Morals and Dogma, p.277) Buddha? I bet that is a shock? > [@](#): > > “Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!” (Morals and Dogma, p.321) Hmm? Is he refering to the biblical Lucifer, or what? ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/45 "2002-03-13T22:58:30Z")
OK. The OP; was is it possible. I heard this from a friend and he really _believes it._ Now, I never really thought the masons to be a particularly harmful group, hell my dad has been one for 20 years. There are at least 10 others I know well and they are mostly the pillars of the community, people I respect on a personal level. I have seen the corruption on what I have called a “petty level” and while I think it stinks, I don’t loose any sleep over it. The thing I have contemplated here is; There are masonic lodges in the mid east and all over the world. Would it be really that far out to think that a lodge in that region might help either of these important men if they are indeed members. It is a big stretch…but it sounds possible…even considerable don’t you think. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/46 "2002-03-13T23:39:23Z")
> [@](#): > > His masterpiece " _Morals and Dogma_ has been drawn upon heavily by the modern masonic movement, and its doctrines are today part of the fabric of modern masonary. Actually, few people have ever been able to wade through Pike’s turgid prose. His influence on the Masonic movement is based on what he effected through his life, not his writings. The preface that the Masons, themselves, place at the beginning of the work include these passages: > [@](#): > > In preparing this work, the Grand Commander [Pike] has been about equally Author and Compiler; since he has extracted quite half its contents from the works of the best writers and most philosophic or eloquent thinkers. Perhaps it would have been better and more acceptable if he had extracted more and written less. > [@](#): > > The teachings of these readings are not sacramental, so far as they go beyond the realm of Morality into those other domains of Thought and Truth. The ancient and accepted Scottish Rite uses the word “Dogma” in its true sense, of doctrine, or teaching; and is not dogmatic in the odious sense of that term. > [@](#): > > Everyone is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound. Pike was an amateur philospher and most of the truly odd religious statements that are usually plucked from his book are out of context and separated from his actual meaning. For example, the “Lucifer” quotation is dragged out of a commentary in which Pike challenged the use of the name “Lucifer” when refering to Satan in various translations of the bible and in extra-biblical Christian religious works. Yet the sentences reported are always the ones he wrote in surprise that the _name_ had been twisted. He was also a truly horrible historian, passing on legends and suppositions as fact. Buddha did _not_ initiate the Masons (whose history does not extend back nearly that far, although some Masons believe it). The Masons were also not started by refugee Knights Templar, although that is another popular belief. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/47 "2002-03-13T23:53:56Z")
By the way, > [@](#): > > Who said masonary wasn’t a religion? it is not nice for people, _here_, to take lines out of context, either. The quote to which you alluded is one in which the idea is put forth _in the context of Pike’s views of learning_ that Masonic lodges would be the places where men would encourage education in support of their religion. Pike’s other comment was: > [@](#): > > “Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it.” Morals and Dogma (p. 161) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/48 "2002-03-14T00:54:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > > **Floater** , Can you present anything to show the Christian foundation of masons? Masons are of all religions and stand at odds with the Catholic church amoung others. History of masonic ritual points not to christianity but to pagan and druid rituals. \*\* Well someone already got to the point of Christianity owing a lot to pagan and druid rituals. I have found many conspiracy pages linking bin Laden to freemasonry but yet to find one with a legitimizing URL, or even a semi-legitimizing URL. Though it is always possible. Both Bill Clinton and George Bush are freemasons. I found their names on [freemasonry.org](http://freemasonry.org) a long time ago, but that site is so badly designed I don’t feel like wading through it to find where they are listed. It was better designed last time I looked. If you can’t find a cite then feel free to say I’m wrong. There is a big difference between good old boys clubs and corrupt world domination a la the Illuminati. I’m sure that Bill Clinton and George Bush belong to plenty of other organizations that include other power brokers from around the world. Freemasonry while an amusing topic certainly does bring out people’s inner moron. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/49 "2002-03-14T01:05:56Z")
**Willy** , why not ask your father then? Two other people who were masons-Aleksander Kerensky and King Aleksandar I of Yugoslavia. Also I believe Edward VII was a mason. So? ---
**Author:** ![JohnM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/848f3c/32.png) [@JohnM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnM)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/50 "2002-03-14T01:54:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zappo \* > While the Vatican might have had a problem with the Masons at some point, there is no religious prohibition on Catholics joining the Masons and it has never been the policy of Freemasonry to exclude Catholics. While excommunication is no longer the prescribed penalty for Catholics who become Masons, the Church’s basic position is unchanged. There was a period of confusion as to the Church’s position regarding lay membership in Masonic organizations between 1974 and 1983, mostly due to the fact that the new Code of Canon Law incorporating Vatican II changes had not yet been promulgated. This confusion ended with the promulgation of the Code in 1983, along with an explicit interpretation from the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (yes, yes, the successor to the Holy Office of the Inquisition, but they really don’t burn people anymore). To quote from said [document](http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFMASN2.HTM): > [@](#): > > …the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic associations remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and, therefore, membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful, who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion. Here is a [newsgroup](http://groups.google.com/groups?q=kennett+square+catholic&hl=en&selm=mLI08.6%24%25D4.4395%40monger.newsread.com&rnum=1) posting about a recent situation involving a Catholic Freemason here in Chester County, PA. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/51 "2002-03-14T02:34:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > > > [@](#): > > > > This is just so weak as a debating technique, it’s laughable. Advice for you: do not resort to accusing someone of being a member of a group you despise when they prove your argument against that group is BS. > > Why is everyone so defensive about this topic? Everyone’s not defensive about it. Apparently you are defensive about it when you get asked by other posters to provide proof of your assertions. > [@](#): > > Why do you think I despise the Masons? Because you posted demonstrably false information about Masons and when called on that, kept saying the stuff you say isn’t false. > [@](#): > > I know alot [sic] of masons. My father is a mason. From what you said about your father, he’s an incredibly unethical Mason and therefore should be chucked out of the fraternity. > [@](#): > > I know the nature of the group. The evidence against you shows otherwise. > [@](#): > > They do alot [sic] of charity work as I mentioned in this thread and I commend them. No where have I condemmed the masons. I asked a simple question based on what I know about the nature of masons. No, you did not. > [@](#): > > They look out for one another in a manner that they might not extend to the common man. Incorrect. Ask any ethical Mason (excluding your father, as your description of his abuse of his membership in the fraternity shows an unethical person). > [@](#): > > There are and always have been examples of corruption amoung [sic] masons in government around the world. Yes, and there are examples of corruption amongst fools in government. Does that mean that I should consider you corrupt? > [@](#): > > I am simply asking to what extent does this favoritism and corruption extend. There is a potential for corruption in all types of groups and organizations. Should I not question this subject? That is not what you asked. That is not what you did. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Advice for you: do not resort to accusing someone of being a member of a group you despise when they prove your argument against that group is BS. > > Accuse? Excuse me but what are you talking about? I asked if he was a mason. A question is not an accusation. Actually, it can be. As I question the validity of your assertions, I am accusing you of fabricating same. > [@](#): > > Now contemplating why you chose the word accuse. Is there something you aren’t telling us about the offensiveness of masons or is your diction just that poor? That would be an accusation, actually two, on your part towards me. It also shows that you really do despise the Masons as you used the term “offensiveness.” As I believe you are not even passingly familiar with Truth, any further discussion I have with you on this subject shall be in the BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/52 "2002-03-14T04:06:34Z")
**Monty** has refused to answer a simple question. Are you a mason? He has now left the conversation with out obliging us with an answer. moving along… > [@](#): > > Willy, why not ask your father then? Interesting you should bring this up. My dad came by this evening and we had a long conversation on this subject. Explained to me how masons do “favors” for one another. He took my sisters car to have the transmission strainer and fluid changed today. The garage owner is a mason. The charge for the service is 39.95…for most of us anyway. He pays 30 even. He reports that membership is up in his lodge due to recruiting, another activity that is denied here. He had plenty to say about the guys “on the square”. He also tells me that any mason upon answering a couple secret questions may seek shelter in any lodge anywhere in the world. > [@](#): > > There is a big difference between good old boys clubs and corrupt world domination a la the Illuminati. **MsWas** , if you believe the masons to be just a good ol’ boys club you are mistaken. If you have researched this, as you say you have, you must be aware that it is the largest organization of its kind on earth with lodges across the globe. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/53 "2002-03-14T04:26:50Z")
> [@](#): > > ]Monty has refused to answer a simple question. Are you a mason? Dammit, **Willy** , he _did_ answer you. He said, very clearly, that he is not a Mason. ---
**Author:** ![Zappo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b3f665/32.png) [@Zappo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zappo)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/54 "2002-03-14T04:36:30Z")
**JohnM** , I stand corrected. Thank you for your information. I was not aware of the documentation you provided. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/55 "2002-03-14T04:44:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Second: No; however, I am a DeMolay and a member of DeMolay’s Knighthood. Also, my father is a Mason. **Monty** did answer. Point taken and apology to you sir. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/56 "2002-03-14T04:44:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > (Oh, and Monty? Damn you and all your DeMolay brethren for always getting the hot Jobie chicks. ;)) Oh, and dont’ forget about the hot Rainbow Girls either, hah! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JohnM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/848f3c/32.png) [@JohnM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnM)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/57 "2002-03-14T04:56:24Z")
**Zappo** , de nada. It was new information for me, as well. I had been under the impression that the ban on RCC members being Masons was a thing of the past, until the recent stories in the Philly Inquirer about the situation in Kennett Square. Reading this thread provided the impetus to do a little research, and that is what I shared. Sort of OT, but given the local geographic reference I thought I would share. Chester County is an old “just outside Mainline” Philly suburb, but it also has one of the highest concentrations of Hispanics in the state. The reason is all the mushroom farms centered around the aforementioned Kennett Square; Pennsylvania accounts for over 35% of the mushrooms grown in the country. How does old money Philadelphia connect with mushrooms? Horses, or more correctly, horse byproducts. And how does that connect with the OP? I consider grand conspiracy theories, be they Jews, Illumnati, Masons, or extraterrestrial reptiles, to be so much mushroom soil. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/58 "2002-03-14T06:23:04Z")
This is really rich. The official site of Demolay. Check out the “Demolay Mania” membership drive. This is the feeder group of and by the masons. Follow the Demolay information link to the history of Demolay. It cracked me up!! [http://www.demolay.org/home/index.shtml](http://www.demolay.org/home/index.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Wisest\_Novel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wisest_novel/32/13329_2.png) [@Wisest\_Novel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wisest_Novel)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/59 "2002-03-14T06:46:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JohnM \* > Chester County is an old “just outside Mainline” Philly suburb, but it also has one of the highest concentrations of Hispanics in the state. \*\* I was wondering about the demographics of Chester county when I read your original post. Seemed to me that out (here, and some other places I’ve lived) in the sticks, no one would much notice or care if a Catholic, Muslim, or Whatever became a Mason, as long as they met the conditions of believing in a supreme deity, good moral character, sponsorship etc. But I had also not known about the formal RCC ban, so certainly could be wrong about my hypothesis, too. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571/60 "2002-03-14T06:55:36Z")
> [@](#): > > .I was wondering about the demographics of Chester county when I read your original post. Seemed to me that out (here, and some other places I’ve lived) in the sticks, no one would much notice or care if a Catholic, Muslim, or Whatever became a Mason, as long as they met the conditions of believing in a supreme deity, good moral character, sponsorship etc. But I had also not known about the formal RCC ban, so certainly could be wrong about my hypothesis, too. Thoughts? The lodge could allow him in. The way I understand it, it would be his church that gives him the cold shoulder. I haven’t seen anything anti - catholic out of the masons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masons-and-the-new-world-order/97571.md?page=4)