# Mass Casualty Shooting at a nightclub in Orlando. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 12, 2016, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178 "2016-06-12T09:56:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/201 "2016-06-13T04:15:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Whoever says “ISIS” first, wins this round. Has anyone said it yet? Obama? Clinton? Trump? Johnson? You keep posting and posting like this is a game. And here you’ve admitted it. “Wins this round”? Seriously? This is a tragedy, not a game show. So just stop. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/202 "2016-06-13T04:20:14Z")
It’s not a tragedy, it’s an atrocity. Get your terminology right. No, this isn’t a game. Which is why people need to stop what basically amounts to typing up a report without using the letter “t”. Either ISIS was behind this, or it’s a case of radical Islamic ideology infecting an American. Just say it. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/203 "2016-06-13T04:39:04Z")
::sigh:: ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/204 "2016-06-13T05:28:03Z")
Well it certainly doesn’t seem like the LA guy is a radical Islamist or supports ISIS given that he posted on Facebook that 9/11 and the Charlie Hebdo shootings were government conspiracies. He also does not appear to be have a Muslim background. His friends also say he is bisexual so until we know more it may be possible that he is just a run of the mill anti-government conspiracy theorist who was actually just intending to attend the gay pride parade. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/205 "2016-06-13T05:29:28Z")
In reference to the man found with weapons in California, authorities have backpedaled about statements about his intent. Apparently he was found with weapons and other suspicions materials and did state an intention to attend the Pride event… but he did not state he was intending to harm anyone at the event. Has a history of pointing guns at people, including his boyfriend, and was on probation for same. More at this LA Times article: [Man with weapons was headed to L.A. gay pride parade](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-gay-pride-la-weapons-20160612-snap-story.html) ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/206 "2016-06-13T05:55:06Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > A more poignant variation from _The Onion_ this time. > > [Nation Wishes It Could Just Once Be Reminded Of Preciousness Of Life Without Mass Shooting](http://www.theonion.com/article/nation-wishes-it-could-just-once-be-reminded-preci-53080) Brilliantly done. And so true. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/207 "2016-06-13T07:24:10Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > This is what I’m most curious about right now. The ex-wife made that statement as if it should have been obvious that this guy was unstable. Well, sure it was to her, but did she ever report to the police and have him arrested? If she was unsafe to do so, what about neighbors who may have heard the beatings happening, or friends or family who may have seen evidence on her or heard from her that he beat her? As a neighbor, I WILL call police if I hear violence happening. The couple may tell me to mind my own business, and guess what? When I can hear or see it, it IS my business. There’s a culture of not getting involved in the US, it’s part of the dark underbelly that doesn’t get talked about much. Being a crazy asshole isn’t a crime, nor is “doing things that make your neighbors request that you be arrested”. There are probably countries in the world where if they think that you’re a potential menace to society (and so long as you don’t have connections), they’ll lock you up and throw away the key, manufacturing whatever legal justification they need to. That goes against the Bill of Rights, though. We generally considered that sort of thing to be despotic and authoritarian. Fundamentally, there’s a cost to being the good guy. If you refuse to shoot first or throw the first punch, you’re at an immediate disadvantage if violence occurs. If you refuse to commit crazy people to an insane asylum, they’ll be walking around in society with access to all of the tools, chemicals, that we make as well as access to all the men, women, and children in society, to hunt and harm. Maybe that cost is worth it. Maybe it isn’t. But we do all have the choice to live in the US or in some other country with different laws and morality. Personally, I’m pretty okay with our freedoms. But I accept that it is a compromise. It’s unfortunate that we haven’t found a system or a set of psychiatric medicine which allows us to preserve our liberties while protecting ourselves from people who are crazy or malevolent, but the world is improving with every year, on average. And, of course, you always have the choice to move somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/208 "2016-06-13T07:30:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Just say it. OK here it goes: ISIS was behind this, and it’s also a case of radical Islamic ideology infecting American. … Well, no flash of lightning, no crack of doom, so what has this done? What did you expect to happen? Radical Islamic ideology is a problem, but so is any radical ideology. Why is it so FUCKING important that be said? Why adaher, why??:mad::mad::mad::mad: ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/209 "2016-06-13T07:33:50Z")
It’s important for the same reason that it was important that the media tell us that George Zimmerman was a WHITE Hispanic. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/210 "2016-06-13T07:40:11Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Being a crazy asshole isn’t a crime… Beating your wife _is_. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/211 "2016-06-13T07:52:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s important for the same reason that it was important that the media tell us that George Zimmerman was a WHITE Hispanic. That’s NOT an answer! Answer the question I asked. Use small words I’m stupid and don’t refer to something that happen years ago, my memory is shot. So again: Why is it so FUCKING important that be said? Why adaher, why??:mad::mad::mad: ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/212 "2016-06-13T07:59:20Z")
It’s important that it be said because when people hear about horrible things, they want to know why. Everyone is giving an answer to that. Some of those answers are true, and some are utter bullshit. 50 people died because of an ideology that preaches death to gay people. The shooter is responsible. The imam who indoctrinated him is responsible. ISIS’s level of responsibility is yet to be determined. You know who is not responsible? Lawful gun owners. American culture. Yet there are people all over Twitter and Facebook saying it’s about easy access to guns or about a sickness in America, or that WE can do better, as if we’re indoctrinating young Muslim men with hatred towards gays. It has to be said because we fight ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/213 "2016-06-13T08:15:31Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > As a matter of fact, I think we’ve only had one gay poster chime in and that wasn’t with accusations, but with praise for the police and how they handled the matter. If our LGBT brethren aren’t decrying the hatred-du-jour out of fear (as would they have every right to), why is everyone else? **panache45** and **Una** , that I know of. Makes two ( **Foggy** hadn’t written at the time of the post I quoted). Condolences from the other side of the pond; I’m glad **Iggy** ’s nephew is OK and that the other asshole in California got caught beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/214 "2016-06-13T08:34:46Z")
I’m surprised no one has questioned why the police waited three hours to enter. DId the shooting stop after the first few minutes and it turned into a siege? Or was this guy allowed to walk through this club calmly offing people for three solid hours? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/215 "2016-06-13T08:36:07Z")
There was something about it had turned into a hostage situation. I’m not going to fault the police until everything’s known. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/216 "2016-06-13T08:47:38Z")
From what I read, people were hiding in various rooms. The gunman found them and killed them. There’s a story about a guy texting his mom from a bathroom and it ending with him texting he found us. ;( In that specific case a good guy with a gun might of made a difference. Only because he’s cornered in a small room and there’s a chance to take a shot when the crazy guy comes through the door. It’s true a good guy with a gun often can’t stop a surprise attack as it begins. Events happen much too quickly. But afterward when groups of people are hiding, then there’s time to prepare to defend yourself and the people you’re with. Given the alternative of yelling "go away!"and throwing a roll of TP. I rather have a gun in that situation. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/217 "2016-06-13T09:16:13Z")
Clicked submit by mistake, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/218 "2016-06-13T09:56:26Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Being a crazy asshole isn’t a crime, nor is “doing things that make your neighbors request that you be arrested”. > > There are probably countries in the world where if they think that you’re a potential menace to society (and so long as you don’t have connections), they’ll lock you up and throw away the key, manufacturing whatever legal justification they need to. That goes against the Bill of Rights, though. We generally considered that sort of thing to be despotic and authoritarian. > > Fundamentally, there’s a cost to being the good guy. If you refuse to shoot first or throw the first punch, you’re at an immediate disadvantage if violence occurs. If you refuse to commit crazy people to an insane asylum, they’ll be walking around in society with access to all of the tools, chemicals, that we make as well as access to all the men, women, and children in society, to hunt and harm. > > Maybe that cost is worth it. Maybe it isn’t. But we do all have the choice to live in the US or in some other country with different laws and morality. > > Personally, I’m pretty okay with our freedoms. But I accept that it is a compromise. It’s unfortunate that we haven’t found a system or a set of psychiatric medicine which allows us to preserve our liberties while protecting ourselves from people who are crazy or malevolent, but the world is improving with every year, on average. And, of course, you always have the choice to move somewhere else. Other countries don’t have the easiest immigration laws. If you’re not in a workforce demographic they need/value, or a refugee, you don’t get to move there permanently. My point, that seems to have made a whooshing sound, is that this guy was a wife beater who had a valid and current Florida security guard license. Which enabled him to buy whatever the hell guns and ammunition he wanted. If he had an arrest record, I’d like to hear from the State of Florida how he got that license. If he didn’t have an arrest record that would have prevented him from obtaining that license, how the hell not? Inaction from his wife (who may not have been able for her own safety), and inaction from others who damn well should have reported him years ago, whether those were neighbors, friends or family. He didn’t have to have served jail time necessarily - just a history of arrests for domestic violence would have kept him from qualifying for the kind of job and licensing he had, along with the ease of buying the guns he did. Would he still have obtained them illegally? Probably. At least it wouldn’t have been quite so easy. So many other things might have been different if he had a record - maybe the FBI would have had better reasons to stay on top of him. Who knows? Too many what ifs and variables from the time someone could have pressed battery charges against him to now. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/219 "2016-06-13T10:18:55Z")
According to the CNN timeline, there were actually three armed officers present already(one inside th club), and they exchanged fire with the gunman: An officer working extra duty in full uniform at the club responds. He and two officers nearby open fire on the shooter, and a gun battle ensues. > **[Orlando shooting survivors describe scenes of chaos | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-shooting-as-it-happened/index.html)** > > The attack at Pulse is the deadliest mass shooting in the United States. > And it began early Sunday morning with two loud pops. Then it says “a hostage situation developed”. Does that mean the shooting stopped for three hours? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/220 "2016-06-13T10:25:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s important that it be said because when people hear about horrible things, they want to know why. Everyone is giving an answer to that. Some of those answers are true, and some are utter bullshit. > > 50 people died because of an ideology that preaches death to gay people. The shooter is responsible. The imam who indoctrinated him is responsible. ISIS’s level of responsibility is yet to be determined. > > You know who is not responsible? Lawful gun owners. American culture. Yet there are people all over Twitter and Facebook saying it’s about easy access to guns or about a sickness in America, or that WE can do better, as if we’re indoctrinating young Muslim men with hatred towards gays. > > It has to be said because we fight ignorance. That would be a valid argument if it weren’t for the fact that this isn’t even the most recent mass shooting in America. There’s been another one in New Mexico and, what, eight or nine in total since last week? This one stands out for the sheer horrific scale of the casualty list but let’s not pretend that people shooting lots of other people in America is purely down to radical Islamism. As for “American culture” not being responsible, if we exclude access to guns as the instigating factor for the ongoing series of terrible events, we’re basically left with “Americans be crazy”. Exceptionalism! On a marginally happier point, it’s worth noting that although gay men are unable to donate blood in Florida, one group jumped straight in with a call for its members to donate: [The Council for American-Islamic Relations](http://www.local10.com/news/muslim-community-condemns-orlando-attack-calls-for-blood-donations). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178.md?page=12)