# Mass Casualty Shooting at a nightclub in Orlando. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 12, 2016, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178 "2016-06-12T09:56:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/221 "2016-06-13T10:31:15Z")
Time to start calling it like it is: another \*constitutional \*slaughter in which fifty people gave their lives for the 2nd amendment that stands in the way of reasonable gun control. Want to do something that will save lives? Push hard to repeal the 2nd amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/222 "2016-06-13T10:32:19Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > My point, that seems to have made a whooshing sound, is that this guy was a wife beater who had a valid and current Florida security guard license. Which enabled him to buy whatever the hell guns and ammunition he wanted. If he had an arrest record, I’d like to hear from the State of Florida how he got that license. My understanding is that being _arrested_ is not the same as being _guilty_. I read a stat once that more than half of the population will, at some point in their lives, be arrested for one thing or another and most of them will never be convicted of anything. That’s what the focus is usually on _conviction_ for crime, not merely arrest. Although I agree the domestic violence situation is a warning flag. Even so, just ONE arrest for that means little. It’s whether or not there’s a pattern of such. > [@](#): > > If he didn’t have an arrest record that would have prevented him from obtaining that license, how the hell not? Inaction from his wife (who may not have been able for her own safety), and inaction from others who damn well should have reported him years ago, whether those were neighbors, friends or family. > > He didn’t have to have served jail time necessarily - just a history of arrests for domestic violence would have kept him from qualifying for the kind of job and licensing he had, along with the ease of buying the guns he did. Would he still have obtained them illegally? Probably. At least it wouldn’t have been quite so easy. So many other things might have been different if he had a record - maybe the FBI would have had better reasons to stay on top of him. Who knows? Too many what ifs and variables from the time someone could have pressed battery charges against him to now. Or maybe we should realize that background checks are not a perfect tool and never will be. People can change over time. People can hide their true motivations and lie when questioned. We can’t be 100% safe AND 100% free at the same time. > [@adaher](#): > > According to the CNN timeline, there were actually three armed officers present already(one inside th club), and they exchanged fire with the gunman I guess that puts a lie to the notion that having armed people in the crowd is going to stop this sort of thing, doesn’t it? > [@](#): > > Then it says “a hostage situation developed”. Does that mean the shooting stopped for three hours? Let’s see… nutjob opens fire in a crowded nightclub, then rounds up a bunch of people and threatens to kill them, too, if the police come crashing through the door… You know, I don’t have a problem with the cops in that situation hesitating to go crashing through the door. I don’t know if the shooting stopped completely or not, but I’m not sure the police charging in earlier would have done any good, either. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/223 "2016-06-13T10:32:27Z")
Strange, when Martin Luther King was shot, we didn’t hear much about guns killing people. We heard about hate killing people. That’s what happened here. These people were targeted for no other reason than that they offended this guy’s religious sensibilities by their very existence. This wasn’t a bullied kid looking for revenge, or some disgruntled worker, or someone mad about his girlfriend and other people just got in the way. This was a terrorist attack, which is not merely a “mass shooting” anymore than an assassination is just another murder. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/224 "2016-06-13T10:34:34Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > Other countries don’t have the easiest immigration laws. If you’re not in a workforce demographic they need/value, or a refugee, you don’t get to move there permanently. And you think the US system has both the easiest immigration laws and no restrictions on who can get in? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/225 "2016-06-13T10:40:56Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I guess that puts a lie to the notion that having armed people in the crowd is going to stop this sort of thing, doesn’t it? Doesn’t put the lie to anything. No armed private citizens responded, only cops. Three police also failed to stop the gunman. That’s not a condemnation of the police so much as an acknowledgement that you can’t rely on anyone to protect you except you. Three police officers could not save those people. Every single person that survived survived because of their own actions to save their lives and the lives of their friends. > [@](#): > > Let’s see… nutjob opens fire in a crowded nightclub, then rounds up a bunch of people and threatens to kill them, too, if the police come crashing through the door… You know, I don’t have a problem with the cops in that situation hesitating to go crashing through the door. > > I don’t know if the shooting stopped completely or not, but I’m not sure the police charging in earlier would have done any good, either. Actually, post-Columbine police tactics are to go in as soon as possible. At Columbine, the majority of the victims were shot while police were right outside. Plus you have wounded inside, in this case a LOT of wounded, who are bleeding out while time ticks away. THe police probably did what they thought was best, and some sources I’ve seen said the shooting did indeed stop and they were in contact with the killer. It’s also reported that the decisionmaking will be reviewed as a routine matter to see if they should have done something different. I have to think the death toll was so large in part because of wounded people left unattended for three hours. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/226 "2016-06-13T10:50:43Z")
OK, I’ll say it. This attack was a direct result of fundamentalist religious extremism. When will society finally rise up and recognize this threat? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/227 "2016-06-13T10:51:36Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Doesn’t put the lie to anything. No armed private citizens responded, only cops. Three police also failed to stop the gunman. That’s not a condemnation of the police so much as an acknowledgement that you can’t rely on anyone to protect you except you. Three police officers could not save those people. Every single person that survived survived because of their own actions to save their lives and the lives of their friends. And what makes you think a few more people shooting guns _in a crowded nightclub_ is going to do jack? Other than maybe get a few more people shot? This isn’t like shooting on the range, no one was going to have a clear line of fire. That didn’t matter to Mateen - he didn’t give a fuck who he killed. It would matter to everyone else. And the people who did die? Are you saying it’s somehow _their_ fault they died? Way to blame the victim. What about the guy who died shielding his boyfriend? Guess no one way looking out for him… oh, wait… In a situation like that who lives and who dies really does have a certain amount of luck involved. The self-reliance worshipping crowd doesn’t want to admit such a thing, but it’s true - pick the wrong moment to walk by the shooter just before he opens fire you die. Pick the right moment to step out for a smoke and you live. The only really rational act in such a situation was the one given out by the nightclub - run away, and keep running. Or find a place to hide and hope to god the gunman doesn’t find you. The notion you’re going to somehow stand your ground and get into a gunfight with someone wielding a semi-auto and not get shot is whack. > [@](#): > > Actually, post-Columbine police tactics are to go in as soon as possible. At Columbine, the majority of the victims were shot while police were right outside. Plus you have wounded inside, in this case a LOT of wounded, who are bleeding out while time ticks away. > > THe police probably did what they thought was best, and some sources I’ve seen said the shooting did indeed stop and they were in contact with the killer. It’s also reported that the decisionmaking will be reviewed as a routine matter to see if they should have done something different. I have to think the death toll was so large in part because of wounded people left unattended for three hours. See, that’s the thing - I wasn’t there, I don’t have all the facts, and don’t want to second guess the people on the hot seat. I don’t think blanket rules are the best - guidelines, yes, but the situation should be evaluated on its own merits. If the police believe hanging back will save more lives than the alternative(s) then that’s what they should do. Just charging in and getting cops shot serves no purpose. Remember, there were three officers in the club itself when Mateen started shooting, would adding more cops help? Certainly the situation should be analyzed, just like a plane crash, for what might be done better next time but that should be done by people with actual facts in hand, not us Monday-morning quarterbacks. ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/228 "2016-06-13T10:53:34Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And you think the US system has both the easiest immigration laws and no restrictions on who can get in? No. Just responding in kind, that if I don’t like the way it is in the States, to just move elsewhere. That’s not how it works. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/229 "2016-06-13T11:02:47Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And what makes you think a few more people shooting guns _in a crowded nightclub_ is going to do jack? Other than maybe get a few more people shot? This isn’t like shooting on the range, no one was going to have a clear line of fire. That didn’t matter to Mateen - he didn’t give a fuck who he killed. It would matter to everyone else. At this point we don’t know whether the shooting got more people killed, or bought more time for more to escape. > [@](#): > > And the people who did die? Are you saying it’s somehow _their_ fault they died? Way to blame the victim. What about the guy who died shielding his boyfriend? Guess no one way looking out for him… oh, wait… > > In a situation like that who lives and who dies really does have a certain amount of luck involved. The self-reliance worshipping crowd doesn’t want to admit such a thing, but it’s true - pick the wrong moment to walk by the shooter just before he opens fire you die. Pick the right moment to step out for a smoke and you live. Luck always plays a role in life. YOu know what else helps? Knowing that no one is likely to save you if you get in trouble. It’s not worshipping self-reliance to have a realistic view of the ability of the authorities to protect you. You know why more and more government agents are armed these days? To protect themselves. Are their concerns more valid than someone who doesn’t work for the government? > [@](#): > > The only really rational act in such a situation was the one given out by the nightclub - run away, and keep running. Or find a place to hide and hope to god the gunman doesn’t find you. The notion you’re going to somehow stand your ground and get into a gunfight with someone wielding a semi-auto and not get shot is whack. Yep, running is the most rational act. No argument there. Wouldn’t even surprise me if a few of those who ran were carrying. Although I’d note the police stood their ground and got into a gunfight. > [@](#): > > See, that’s the thing - I wasn’t there, I don’t have all the facts, and don’t want to second guess the people on the hot seat. I don’t think blanket rules are the best - guidelines, yes, but the situation should be evaluated on its own merits. If the police believe hanging back will save more lives than the alternative(s) then that’s what they should do. Just charging in and getting cops shot serves no purpose. Remember, there were three officers in the club itself when Mateen started shooting, would adding more cops help? > > Certainly the situation should be analyzed, just like a plane crash, for what might be done better next time but that should be done by people with actual facts in hand, not us Monday-morning quarterbacks. I agree with all that. I am not judging the cops yet, just looking for more information about the situation. Cops shoot people all the time and get immediately pilloried for it. Usually they did the right thing. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/230 "2016-06-13T11:09:05Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Personally, I’m pretty okay with our freedoms. But I accept that it is a compromise. It’s unfortunate that we haven’t found a system or a set of psychiatric medicine which allows us to preserve our liberties while protecting ourselves from people who are crazy or malevolent, but the world is improving with every year, on average. And, of course, you always have the choice to move somewhere else. Freedom? [Last year the USA made it into the top 20 of the Human Freedom Index, but only in last place of the top 20](http://www.freetheworld.com/index.php). Rather than take the “Freedum – love it or leave it!” approach, why not work toward improving freedom and trying to keep up with the first world? ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/231 "2016-06-13T11:11:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > My understanding is that being _arrested_ is not the same as being _guilty_. I read a stat once that more than half of the population will, at some point in their lives, be arrested for one thing or another and most of them will never be convicted of anything. > > That’s what the focus is usually on _conviction_ for crime, not merely arrest. I looked at the Florida security guard licensing application. In it, while a felony record _will_ preclude an applicant from licensure, an arrest record _may_ prevent approval. There’s a decent list of arrest - not conviction - reasons that could prevent approval. Granted it says _may_, so who knows whether even one domestic violence arrest would have made a difference. It very well may have. Would need stats from Florida on their denial rate. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/232 "2016-06-13T11:12:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Competence at the minimum is being able to recognize and name the enemy. To listen to some liberal commentators, this act was committed by the Faceless Men(GoT reference). > > \*\*Whoever says “ISIS” first, wins this round. \*\*Has anyone said it yet? Obama? Clinton? Trump? Johnson? This is completely absurd, and I’d hope you wish you could delete this post. This is the flag pin bullshit all over again. This is not a competition to see whose red white and blue penis is the biggest, or who can state that they oppose ISIS fastest. Give me a break. I am aware that you’re better than this. So please, try to be consistent and \*stay \*better than this. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/233 "2016-06-13T11:14:33Z")
**EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD** I apologize that I couldn’t monitor this thread more closely yesterday, so I won’t hand out any additional warnings on previous posts for politicizing this thread. This thread is about the news regarding the mass shooting at the Pulse nightclub. If you want to discuss: NRA Gun laws Islamic terrorism Islamophobia etc Take it to: The Pit GD IMHO Warnings will be issued for those ignoring these directions. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/234 "2016-06-13T11:17:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, I’ll say it. This attack was a direct result of fundamentalist religious extremism. When will society finally rise up and recognize this threat? We’re more worried about the dangers of atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/235 "2016-06-13T11:18:27Z")
cross posted, Ivory. Didn’t see. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/236 "2016-06-13T13:26:35Z")
[Gunman Omar Mateen Described as Belligerent, Racist and ‘Toxic’](http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/terror-hate-what-motivated-orlando-nightclub-shooter-n590496) > [@](#): > > His father told NBC News his son was enraged after recently seeing a same-sex couple kissing in front of his family, an event that could have set him off. > > “He was scary in a concerning way,” [Daniel Gilroy, a co-worker at G4S Secure Solutions] said. “And it wasn’t at times. It was all the time. He had anger management issues. Something would set him off, but the things that would set him off were always women, race or religion. [Those were] his button pushers.” ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/237 "2016-06-13T14:10:38Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > How did I know that Obama was going to use this as an opportunity to lambast the gun laws? God forbid he should focus on Islamic extremism. Did he even mention that the shooter was an Islamic extremist? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/238 "2016-06-13T14:49:35Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Pointless bickering by post 19… it’s the Dope. > > I object to the pronoun, “he”… assuming the shooter’s gender is contrary to modern enlightened sensibility. :rolleyes: Come to think of it, why is it that women never seem to do this sort of thing? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/239 "2016-06-13T14:57:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Come to think of it, why is it that women never seem to do this sort of thing? In the human species, males have always been the ones to go out and fight and die for their women and tribes. Pretty simple, really. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/240 "2016-06-13T14:57:20Z")
> [@gytalf2000](#): > > Did he even mention that the shooter was an Islamic extremist? \*Radical \*Islamic extremist. Why can’t you say those words? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178.md?page=13)