# Mass Casualty Shooting at a nightclub in Orlando. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 12, 2016, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178 "2016-06-12T09:56:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/21 "2016-06-12T15:00:55Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Nice - blame it on a gay person. Because we all know that straights can’t be homophobes. Of course straight people can be homophobic. But there is a tradition of people who are most vocal against homosexuals being gay people from conservative religious backgrounds. Former US senator Larry Craig is one example off the top of my head. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/22 "2016-06-12T15:00:57Z")
If he did it because of his Islamic beliefs, it’s Islamic terrorism, and what acts of Islamic terrorism aren’t also based on hate anyway? Of course it’s a hate crime, \*and \*Islamic terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/23 "2016-06-12T15:01:33Z")
Pointless bickering by post 19… it’s the Dope. I object to the pronoun, “he”… assuming the shooter’s gender is contrary to modern enlightened sensibility. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/24 "2016-06-12T15:08:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Nice - blame it on a gay person. Because we all know that straights can’t be homophobes. Just to clarify, I have zero problems with homosexuality. My problem is with conservative religious traditions, whether Christian, Islamic, or any other, that teach that homosexuality is a sin. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/25 "2016-06-12T15:10:01Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > You know who else commits terrorist attacks and hates gay rights? Christian fundamentalists. The same people who blow up abortion clinics. Excellent point. When 50+ are killed by a Muslim extremist, it’s outrageous that Christians should be able to evade blame. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/26 "2016-06-12T15:11:30Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Body count is now 50 or more; it’s being called the worst mass killing in US history. Holy. Fuck. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/27 "2016-06-12T15:19:20Z")
The conservatives, especially the extremists, are going to have a hell of a time with this one. There’s no one to support except the NRA. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/28 "2016-06-12T15:21:38Z")
This is just getting worse by the hour. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/29 "2016-06-12T15:22:18Z")
The death toll is only going to rise in the coming hours too. No doubt the gun filth will say this could have been avoided had the other club patrons been armed. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/30 "2016-06-12T15:24:44Z")
Were all the deaths due to the gunman or were there casualties in the firefight with the police? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/31 "2016-06-12T15:25:48Z")
Plus an explosion was initially reported. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/32 "2016-06-12T15:25:56Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > The death toll is only going to rise in the coming hours too. No doubt the gun filth will say this could have been avoided had the other club patrons been armed. Maybe someone should ask the Pink Pistols for their view? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/33 "2016-06-12T15:26:04Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It’s premature to say whether this was a hate crime or terrorism, they need to figure out if the shooter had any ties with anyone. C’mon if we learned anything from Benghazi, it’s the vital importance of rushing to judgement on these things. We can’t waste time looking for facts; we need to reach a conclusion within the same span of time it takes to watch an episode of _Law and Order_ or _NCIS_. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/34 "2016-06-12T15:31:42Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > If he did it because of his Islamic beliefs, it’s Islamic terrorism, and what acts of Islamic terrorism aren’t also based on hate anyway? Of course it’s a hate crime, \*and \*Islamic terrorism. Not necessarily so. Muslims do not “hate” anybody, any more than Christians do. You seem to be taikng the position that a person embracing the Islamic faith does so out of hatred, or that learning hatred is a preached tenet of Islam. Which I don’t think is a supportable position, any more so than that Christians can be taught to hate by people quoting scripture. It may have been a “hate crime”, depending on whether the perpetrator “hated” the group that he specifically targeted. And there are plenty of Christians who hate, with equal venom, the same group. But if so, the fact that there was a target group removes it from the definition of “terrorism”, whose intended victims are random civilians. The two cannot co-exist, according to their own definitions. If you hate your victims, it’s a hate crime. If they are random citizens, it is terrorism. Simply throwing around words like hate, Muslim, terrorism, does not illuminate the issue. Especially if one is starting out from his own position of hate, and is trying to justify it. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/35 "2016-06-12T15:50:06Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Not necessarily so. Muslims do not “hate” anybody, any more than Christians do. You seem to be taikng the position that a person embracing the Islamic faith does so out of hatred, or that learning hatred is a preached tenet of Islam. Which I don’t think is a supportable position, any more so than that Christians can be taught to hate by people quoting scripture. Nice argument, but quite a few “Christian” groups including churches \*do \*openly teach hate, using their interpretation of scripture. As do any number of Islamic groups, which I’m sure is your point. Neither side holds any moral high ground here. For every humble, pious member of each faith there’s one somewhere who genuinely believes [insert prophet here] hates [insert foul term for them other people here]. And that Jehomed is whispering in their ear to do something about it… from rant in the streets to murdering the sinners. About the only way this can get worse is if the shooter had a Trump t-shirt on under his camo. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/36 "2016-06-12T15:54:36Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > Given this guys name there will undoubtedly be people saying this is Islamic terrorism however NBC is reporting they spoke to the shooters father and he related the son had been upset when he recently saw two men kissing in public. Regardless of Mateen’s religion I think that makes this sound more like a hate crime. YMMV A hate crime inspired by a religious indoctrination is not a bizarre pairing. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/37 "2016-06-12T15:55:38Z")
Before we place blame everywhere, from Islam to Christianity, closeted gays to homophobic straights, from terrorism to hate crime, could we simply mourn the lost and injured and their loved ones and maybe wait for a little more information to come in first? I bet that, despite the delay for facts, they’ll still be plenty of blame to go around in time. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/38 "2016-06-12T15:55:45Z")
I preedict that the right and left will each interpret or promote a narrative about this attack in a different way. The right will focus on the “He was an Islamic terrorist” angle. The left will focus on the “Gay people were attacked” angle. There’s enough material for everyone to spin their desired narrative. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/39 "2016-06-12T15:57:36Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Not necessarily so. Muslims do not “hate” anybody, any more than Christians do. You seem to be taikng the position that a person embracing the Islamic faith does so out of hatred, or that learning hatred is a preached tenet of Islam. Which I don’t think is a supportable position, any more so than that Christians can be taught to hate by people quoting scripture. > > It may have been a “hate crime”, depending on whether the perpetrator “hated” the group that he specifically targeted. And there are plenty of Christians who hate, with equal venom, the same group. But if so, the fact that there was a target group removes it from the definition of “terrorism”, whose intended victims are random civilians. The two cannot co-exist, according to their own definitions. If you hate your victims, it’s a hate crime. If they are random citizens, it is terrorism. > > Simply throwing around words like hate, Muslim, terrorism, does not illuminate the issue. Especially if one is starting out from his own position of hate, and is trying to justify it. What the hell is there to illuminate? It isn’t hate, isn’t based on Islamic beliefs and isn’t terrorism? Wow. Please, do illuminate. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178/40 "2016-06-12T15:59:22Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > the fact that there was a target group removes it from the definition of “terrorism”, whose intended victims are random civilians. The two cannot co-exist, according to their own definitions. If you hate your victims, it’s a hate crime. If they are random citizens, it is terrorism. Where do you get this sort of definition from? I can’t disagree more. It is perfectly possible for terrorism to entail the killing of specifically targeted people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-casualty-shooting-at-a-nightclub-in-orlando/757178.md?page=3)