# Mass Effect Legendary - my thoughts while I play these games (spoilers as I play) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** video-games-e-games\ **Created:** [May 13, 2021, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984 "2021-05-13T11:38:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/504 "2021-06-07T13:05:24Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > Tali and Garrus are very fun to romance. With regards to romance, I feel that female Shepard gets short-changed in ME 2 compared to male Shepard. Tali, Jack and Miranda all have some kind of character arc where they’re not sure how they feel about Shepard and then they learn to trust him over time. Whereas Garrus, Thane and Jacob are basically fine with Shepard from the start and their romantic arc is basically saying “I like you, do you like me?” My least favourite romance is probably Kaiden in ME 3. He spends ME 2 and half of ME 3 scolding Shepard for being a Nazi (basically) and then out of nowhere he’s like “I’m into you, let’s hook up”. No thanks, I’ll stick with Samantha Traynor. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/505 "2021-06-07T13:26:42Z")
Traynor is the best. A secret goofball. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/506 "2021-06-07T14:23:27Z")
I think the indoctrination theory is just a really, really great headcanon that really took off. It’s worth noting that Bioware has said it’s a great theory, but not one they planned. I think they even said something like “we’re not that smart/creative” but I could be making that up. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/507 "2021-06-07T14:35:28Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > I think the indoctrination theory is just a really, really great headcanon that really took off. Is the idea just that Illusive Man is fully indoctrinated and is more or less innocent? I haven’t watched the video yet. Or are they suggesting the ending didn’t really happen and everyone is indoctrinated to believe it did? ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/508 "2021-06-07T14:53:11Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Or are they suggesting the ending didn’t really happen and everyone is indoctrinated to believe it did? Mostly they point out some plot holes in ME 3 and claim that it’s proof that those parts of the game are in Shepard’s mind. Some of the plot holes were fixed (sort of) in the ME 3 extended ending. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/509 "2021-06-07T14:56:43Z")
It’s saying that Shepard is indoctrinated and that he actually dies in the final rush up to the skybeam in ME3 and the whole ending is just played out in his head. The video is definitely worth a watch because there are great things that are pulled out of all three games as “evidence”. It really does make a certain amount of sense based off of how often Shepard is around Reaper-based items and some lines in the games and such. But yeah, it’s mostly just a way to cherrypick certain things in the series to justify plotholes. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/510 "2021-06-07T15:03:48Z")
Wasn’t there also a theory after ME 2 came out that Cerberus was controlling Shepard’s mind and that’s why Shepard was so willing to work for the Illusive Man? I thought that was why there are so many references in ME 3 saying “no, the Illusive Man genuinely tried to make Shepard exactly the same as before, there’s no control chip in Shepard’s head, etc.” ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/511 "2021-06-07T17:09:48Z")
@Mahaloth , who did you take with you to the Cerberus base? ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/512 "2021-06-07T19:37:02Z")
Not that I remember hearing. I do know Miranda mentions wishing you were implanted with a chip, but that’s the only time I recall it being brought up in 2 ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/513 "2021-06-07T19:38:21Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > @Mahaloth , who did you take with you to the Cerberus base? Liara and EDI, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/514 "2021-06-07T20:13:47Z")
I remember you were shying away from them, but did you do the renegade interrupt with Kai Lang at the end? This is for Thane you son of a bitch ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/515 "2021-06-07T20:19:10Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > This is for Thane you son of a bitch I think he says the same thing whether you do the interrupt or not. It’s just a “Han Shot First” thing: either Shepard stabs Kai Leng pre-emptively or he dodges and stabs Kai Leng afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/516 "2021-06-07T21:31:35Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > I remember you were shying away from them, but did you do the renegade interrupt with Kai Lang at the end? Yes, I assume I did. My Shepard said, “This is for Thane, you son of a bitch!” Internally, I cheered. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/517 "2021-06-07T23:07:42Z")
And now, some Mass Effect-inspired tunes from Miracle of Sound: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/9feUxKIqKmg/hqdefault.jpg "TAKE IT BACK! - Official Mass Effect 3 Music Video by Miracle Of Sound & Bioware") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9feUxKIqKmg) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/HiRDJLcYua0/maxresdefault.jpg "COMMANDER SHEPARD - The song (OFFICIAL VIDEO) by Miracle Of Sound") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiRDJLcYua0) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/hfelfyV8LwA/hqdefault.jpg "NORMANDY - Mass Effect song by Miracle Of Sound (ME3 version) Official video") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfelfyV8LwA) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/518 "2021-06-08T19:32:46Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > But yeah, it’s mostly just a way to cherrypick certain things in the series to justify plotholes. Maybe. But as you noted, even Bioware was of the opinion that this would have been a better ending but they were not smart enough to think of it (I too recall them saying that somewhere). ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/519 "2021-06-08T20:45:21Z")
I hesitate to think they said the ending was _better_ than what they made, I think they just acknowledged that it was very creative ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/520 "2021-06-08T20:46:06Z")
It was _definitely_ better. I think their response implied that. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/521 "2021-06-08T20:49:42Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > I hesitate to think they said the ending was _better_ than what they made “It was all a dream, to be continued…” doesn’t even qualify as a trilogy ending, does it? Personally, I think they were just being polite to their fans. Likewise, saying “Our fans are the best fans in the world!” is not proof of anything either. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/522 "2021-06-08T23:36:05Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > “It was all a dream, to be continued…” It was not all a dream. The main point is Shepard was being indoctrinated from the beginning. The very, very end may have been a dream or something else. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2021, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984/523 "2021-06-09T13:23:15Z")
I will argue that the indoctrination theory is a better ending at all. It’s more unique and original sure, but better? Like @hogarth said, it’s basically “none of this really happened”. Frankly, if the theory as presented were true, the end sequence is an even bigger letdown than the ending Bioware gave us. Think about it, there are all these subtle hints throughout the trilogy that Shepard is becoming more and more indoctrinated. His seemingly heroic venture is taking a darker turn. He’s waging an internal war between his desire to end the reaper threat, and the reapers themselves throwing him off course to extend their own existence. It’s coming to the final showdown and…he gets zapped. The end. One of the biggest criticisms of the ending is that your choices didn’t REALLY matter in the games. Sure, the game is more rewarding if Wrex is the leader of the Krogan and you cure the genophage versus having it be Wreav, but other than galaxy readiness, it doesn’t matter if you cure the genophage or not. It doesn’t matter if you let the Rachni queen live in ME1, there’s still a queen in 3, etc. etc. The indoctrination theory makes your choices even more moot and pointless because it was just Shepard all along. I think the theory is fun and it’s most certainly creative and unique, but it’s exactly that, a fun and unique take on the series. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-effect-legendary-my-thoughts-while-i-play-these-games-spoilers-as-i-play/941984.md?page=27)