# Mass Electronic Deletion of novel "1984" from Amazon Kindle. Link **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 19, 2009, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529 "2009-07-19T12:07:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/21 "2009-07-19T20:57:14Z")
I think you mean “vaporise” it. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/22 "2009-07-19T21:03:25Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > And instead of deleting your copy of it, they should replace it with the correct one, as you ALREADY bought and PAID for it, or did they refund everybody…:dubious: Per the link in my post above, they refunded everybody and apologized. (NB: I don’t own a Kindle, I think Amazon screwed up in not warning people, and appreciate that they apologized and said they won’t do this again.) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/23 "2009-07-19T21:24:46Z")
How anyone can own the rights to 1984 at this point is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/24 "2009-07-19T21:41:31Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > _1984_ does not exist. _1984_ has never existed. _Whew_! I _knew_ Van Halen would never go the lame synth-rock route… ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/25 "2009-07-19T21:54:42Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Per the link in my post above, they refunded everybody and apologized. (NB: I don’t own a Kindle, I think Amazon screwed up in not warning people, and appreciate that they apologized and said they won’t do this again.) Per your link they won’t do it again “in these circumstances”, which would imply that they may do it again in some other circumstances :dubious: _shrug_ Not that I own a Kindle, nor did I have any plans to buy one. Of course after hearing about this Kindle is now on my Will Never Buy-list. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/26 "2009-07-19T21:56:18Z")
> [@Scruff](#): > > Minor clarification: > > Amazon did not delete the book from everybody’s Kindles. They deleted the book from the cloud (that mythical semi-real place where your ebooks “live” on the internet). Then when the Kindle next called the mothership (to update subscriptions, get new books, see what was going on), the local copy was deleted because it was gone from your library. So, they didn’t really delete it, they just deleted it? What kind of doublespeak is this? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/27 "2009-07-19T22:18:40Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > So, they didn’t really delete it, they just deleted it? What kind of doublespeak is this? The relevant distinction is that Amazon did not actively go onto people’s Kindles and actually delete the file there. It got deleted because of the way the Kindles synchronize with home base. In the context of whether or not you’re allowed to keep a book you paid for, the distinction isn’t relevant, but in the context of personal privacy, it does matter. Amazon deleted their copy, not each individual copy residing on each individual Kindle. It just happens that Kindles are designed to make sure both you and Amazon each have a copy. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/28 "2009-07-19T22:22:21Z")
I find it most amusing in a thread which seems to flame propaganda, that they are disinclined to quote the major part of the article: > [@](#): > > In this case, the mass e-book removals were motivated by copyright . A company called MobileReference, who did not own the copyrights to the books 1984 and Animal Farm, uploaded both books to the Kindle store and started selling them. When the rights owner heard about this, they contacted Amazon and asked that the e-books be removed. And Amazon decided to erase them not just from the store, but from all the Kindles where they’d been downloaded. Amazon operators used the Kindle wireless network, called WhisperNet, to quietly delete the books from people’s devices and refund them the money they’d paid. This wasn’t an act of censorship, plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![supergoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@supergoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/supergoose)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/29 "2009-07-19T22:56:17Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > _1984_ does not exist. _1984_ has never existed. > [@JohnT](#): > > Shit. That means I never graduated from High School. ☹ At least you were still _born_. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/30 "2009-07-19T23:42:38Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I find it most amusing in a thread which seems to flame propaganda, that they are disinclined to quote the major part of the article: > This wasn’t an act of censorship, plain and simple. Don’t you find the whole situation pretty disturbing? In the “cloud” where we are apparently going to live for the next era, nothing really belongs to you and you don´t have any privacy whatsoever. > [@](#): > > Orwell would have appreciated the irony. But he also would have been the first to predict that this problem would arise when one company sells both the books themselves and the device required to read them, when that company insists on locking up the books with “protection” that prevents them being shifted to any other device, and has the power of “remote deletion” at its fingertips. Big Brother, indeed! > > This is Amazon choosing its “content partners” over its customers. There is nothing about copyright law that required these deletions – if Amazon didn’t have the rights to sell the e-books in the first place, the infringement happened when the books were sold. Remote deletion doesn’t change that, and it’s not an infringement for the Kindle owner simply to read the book. Can you imagine a brick-and-mortar bookstore chasing you home, entering your house, and pulling a book from your shelf after you paid good money for it? (Nor, for that matter, does Amazon reserve any “remote deletion” right the Kindle “terms of service”. [Link.](http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/07/orwell-2009-dystopia) ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/31 "2009-07-19T23:46:20Z")
Not a censorship issue, a bad PR issue and yet another clear-cut example of why buying DRM’ed electronic files from any mass merchandiser is a horrible idea. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/32 "2009-07-20T00:35:29Z")
Yeah, this isn’t about censorship as the term is usually used; this is about DRM and copyright issues. Which isn’t to deny that it was still a fiasco which exposes good reason to be upset with the way of the world… it’s just that the target of the ire needs to be appropriately selected. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/33 "2009-07-20T01:34:34Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Yeah, this isn’t about censorship as the term is usually used; this is about DRM and copyright issues. No, it’s ALSO about censorship issues. They’ve just demonstrated that they can if they feel like delete books they don’t like. I assume they could also replace them with edited versions and replace what you bought with them. Probably without you even knowing. As long as they can do that and get away with it, I have no desire for a Kindle. I’ll just buy paper books that I actually own and aren’t subject to remote deletion and modification. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/34 "2009-07-20T01:57:34Z")
> [@Estilicon](#): > > Don’t you find the whole situation pretty disturbing? Not really, no. The money was refunded, which is a better deal than you get with a physical item. > **[What recourse do you have if you unknowingly purchase stolen property? - Answers](https://www.answers.com/law-and-legal-issues/What_recourse_do_you_have_if_you_unknowingly_purchase_stolen_property)** > > Absolutely not. Recovered stolen property is returned to the > rightful owner. If a reasonable person knows, or has reason to > know, that property that has come into their possession, through > gift or purchase, is potentially stolen, and that person... > **[Page Not Found](https://www.ibc.ca/404)** I’ll also note that, while Orwell was writing against any sort of totalitarian regime, one of the prime examples while he was writing was the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was a place which didn’t agree with the idea of personal property nor the ability to profit from your own works. You will in fact note that George Orwell did in fact copyright his novel (something which he had full rights to forgo), as evidenced by this occurence, and he most assuredly did personally profit by, as did his widow and later his son. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/35 "2009-07-20T02:09:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it’s ALSO about censorship issues. They’ve just demonstrated that they can if they feel like delete books they don’t like. I assume they could also replace them with edited versions and replace what you bought with them. Probably without you even knowing. > > As long as they can do that and get away with it, I have no desire for a Kindle. I’ll just buy paper books that I actually own and aren’t subject to remote deletion and modification. Alright, fair enough. It’s about censorship to the extent that DRM provides the means for censorship. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/36 "2009-07-20T02:27:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it’s ALSO about censorship issues. They’ve just demonstrated that they can if they feel like delete books they don’t like. :dubious: Yes and obviously I’m displaying my desire for censorship by burning books as a way to stay warm in a snowstorm, since it’s demonstrating my ability to remove books from the planet whenever I feel like it… There are only too few rolleyes. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/37 "2009-07-20T02:40:45Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > :dubious: Yes and obviously I’m displaying my desire for censorship by burning books as a way to stay warm in a snowstorm, since it’s demonstrating my ability to remove books from the planet whenever I feel like it… A poor analogy. A better one would be if you installed radio controlled incendiaries in books so you could burn them in other people’s homes. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/38 "2009-07-20T02:42:10Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I think you mean Orwellian, but it rhymes. Yeah… ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/39 "2009-07-20T02:48:44Z")
First of all, this isn’t censorship by any definition of the term. Even setting aside the “only the government can censor things” argument, censorship means banning or bowdlerizing books. Amazon did not do this – they removed a book that should never have been sold to you in the first place. And not because of content or a political agenda, but because this was an illegal copy. Your money was stolen from you. Instead of paying it to the Orwell estate and their publisher, you paid it to someone who had no right to sell you the book. If you have any respect for Orwell at all, you should see that the book was ripped off\* and that no one should benefit from that crime – not the person ripping off the estate, nor you by having the pirated copy. Amazon credited your account, too; as others have pointed out, you wouldn’t get that if you bought a pirated hard copy. I see this sort of thing essential. Otherwise you’d see fewer good books since authors wouldn’t get paid for them. \ ***1984** – as Asimov pointed out – is merely an rote extrapolation of the old Soviet Union. And the old Soviet Union was notorious for pirating books. Essentially, the people who pirated the book are acting like Big Brother. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/40 "2009-07-20T02:50:20Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > How anyone can own the rights to 1984 at this point is beyond me. Welcome to the wonderful world of extended copyright. This statement copyrighted for the next 101 years. Pay up, bitches ! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529.md?page=3)