# Mass Electronic Deletion of novel "1984" from Amazon Kindle. Link **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 19, 2009, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529 "2009-07-19T12:07:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/41 "2009-07-20T03:27:35Z")
Near as I can tell, Mobile Reference is based in Canada, so they are free to own copies of a book that’s in the public domain. That doesn’t mean they have the right to sell it in the US, but they have every right to their own versions. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/42 "2009-07-20T04:13:32Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Welcome to the wonderful world of extended copyright. > > This statement copyrighted for the next 101 years. Pay up, bitches ! What a ridiculous abuse of the concept. I need to write a best-selling novel so that my children may never have to produce anything of value or contribute anything lasting to society of their own. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/43 "2009-07-20T04:21:37Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > Near as I can tell, Mobile Reference is based in Canada, so they are free to own copies of a book that’s in the public domain. That doesn’t mean they have the right to sell it in the US, but they have every right to their own versions. If it is in English what’s the difference between versions? ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/44 "2009-07-20T04:33:36Z")
The works of Orwell are in the public domain in Canada but not the United States due to the duration granted by law in those countries (they’re signatories to different copyright pacts). So no difference in version beyond the country in which you buy it. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/45 "2009-07-20T04:57:06Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I need to write a best-selling novel so that my children may never have to produce anything of value or contribute anything lasting to society of their own. :rolleyes: Go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/46 "2009-07-20T05:26:24Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Go ahead. You really missed the point on that one didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/47 "2009-07-20T05:59:04Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > How anyone can own the rights to 1984 at this point is beyond me. Yeah. I find this far more disturbing that what Amazon did (not that I’m defending their actions here). > [@RealityChuck](#): > > First of all, this isn’t censorship by any definition of the term. Even setting aside the “only the government can censor things” argument, censorship means banning or bowdlerizing books. Amazon did not do this – they removed a book that should never have been sold to you in the first place. And not because of content or a political agenda, but because this was an illegal copy. > > Your money was stolen from you. Instead of paying it to the Orwell estate and their publisher, you paid it to someone who had no right to sell you the book. If you have any respect for Orwell at all, you should see that the book was ripped off\* and that no one should benefit from that crime – not the person ripping off the estate, nor you by having the pirated copy. Amazon credited your account, too; as others have pointed out, you wouldn’t get that if you bought a pirated hard copy. > > I see this sort of thing essential. Otherwise you’d see fewer good books since authors wouldn’t get paid for them. The author of this particular work is long dead. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/48 "2009-07-20T06:02:07Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > So, they didn’t really delete it, they just deleted it? What kind of doublespeak is this? Doubleplus ungood doublespeak. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/49 "2009-07-20T08:55:38Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Amazon credited your account, too; as others have pointed out, you wouldn’t get that if you bought a pirated hard copy. If you bought a pirated hard copy, Amazon wouldn’t have taken back a book that you bought in good faith. I don’t give them any credit for crediting the customers’ accounts, because all that does is reduce their action from criminal to assholish. As the only group _actually at fault_, Amazon should have resolved the issue without putting the burden on their customers. The obvious solution would have been to pay the Orwell estate out of their own pockets, or seeing if they could make some arrangement with Mobile Reference. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/50 "2009-07-20T09:09:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A poor analogy. A better one would be if you installed radio controlled incendiaries in books so you could burn them in other people’s homes. If you only did that to be a prankster, it still has nothing to do with censorship. Amazon’s deletion ability is there to allow them to do things like rental services or weekly news that disappears when the new one comes, or whatever. They deleted this book because they realized they didn’t have the right to give it to you in the first place. The sheer ability to destroy a book, ones own or someone else’s aside, has nothing to do with censorship. There’s not a person on the planet who can’t figure out a way to destroy someone else’s possessions (for instance, by throwing a molotov cocktail at their house), and there’s no call to restrain everyone in a padded room. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/51 "2009-07-20T09:37:14Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If you only did that to be a prankster, it still has nothing to do with censorship. > > Amazon’s deletion ability is there to allow them to do things like rental services or weekly news that disappears when the new one comes, or whatever. They deleted this book because they realized they didn’t have the right to give it to you in the first place. > > The sheer ability to destroy a book, ones own or someone else’s aside, has nothing to do with censorship. There’s not a person on the planet who can’t figure out a way to destroy someone else’s possessions (for instance, by throwing a molotov cocktail at their house), and there’s no call to restrain everyone in a padded room. You are just being ridiculous now. By that “logic” theft is OK, because any thug has the power to break into my home and steal stuff. They set up a system that would be unacceptable in traditional products; but because it’s new I’m supposed to just shrug and not care. People wouldn’t buy books or cars or clothing that was wired for remote destruction by the seller; but somehow it’s considered OK to do that with data and programs. Including data that the company doesn’t own; a college student who used the Kindle to make notes on _1984_ lost them along with his copy of the book. But since he’s merely a customer, somehow HIS data isn’t sacred. And this affair is an example of why with the current state of the law, actual books are simply superior to digital ones. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/52 "2009-07-20T10:01:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You are just being ridiculous now. By that “logic” theft is OK, because any thug has the power to break into my home and steal stuff. No, by that logic, theft is called “theft”. Choosing to call something by a name other than its own is silly. I didn’t say anything about “OK” or “Not OK”. Nothing I said has anything to do with whether a prankster, thief, copyright protector, or arsonist is or isn’t morally justified. I’m saying nothing more nor than less than that prosecuting an arsonist as a censor is silly, short of any evidence that that was his actual intent. _You can and still should prosecute him on arson._ Arson is bad. It’s not OK. But it’s not censorship, _unless it is_. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/53 "2009-07-20T10:26:36Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > No, by that logic, theft is called “theft”. Choosing to call something by a name other than its own is silly. > > I didn’t say anything about “OK” or “Not OK”. Nothing I said has anything to do with whether a prankster, thief, copyright protector, or arsonist is or isn’t morally justified. I’m saying nothing more nor than less than that prosecuting an arsonist as a censor is silly, short of any evidence that that was his actual intent. _You can and still should prosecute him on arson._ Arson is bad. It’s not OK. But it’s not censorship, _unless it is_. :rolleyes: In other words, you are trying to handwave away my point with an irrelevant side issue. Fine, remote controlled whiteout then. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/54 "2009-07-20T13:56:45Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You really missed the point on that one didn’t you? No, I didn’t, but I suspect you did. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/55 "2009-07-20T18:54:10Z")
Rather than being either an act of censorship OR a justified response to copyright infringement, I’m disappointed this wasn’t a publicity stunt. Or… was it? :dons tinfoil hat: ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/56 "2009-07-20T19:04:55Z")
So they didn’t delete every copy of “1984”, just the ones from this publisher, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/57 "2009-07-20T21:27:10Z")
Governments censor for politics, Religions censor for hersey, Big Business censors anything that damages the Bottom Line. BTW–_Animal Farm_ got deleted, too, so all bizpigs are not equal, I guess. Annuder link. [http://technologyexpert.blogspot.com/2009/07/orwellian-amazoncom-remotely-deletes.html](http://technologyexpert.blogspot.com/2009/07/orwellian-amazoncom-remotely-deletes.html) ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/58 "2009-07-20T21:54:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > How anyone can own the rights to 1984 at this point is beyond me. Quite easily. 1984 was written in 1948 (or 1949 depending on how you count). Copyright was for 28 years with an additional 28 year extention as amended in 1909. As Orwell died in 1950, it obviously wouldn’t be renewed by him and there’s a chance that it wouldn’t have been renewed by the benefactors of the copyright when it came up for review in 1976-77. Fortunately we’ll never need to worry about the answer to that question because in 1976, Congress extended copyright to the life of the author plus 50 years to be retroactively applied. Whew! Orwell’s covered until 2000 then! But guess what happened in 1998? The Sonny Bono copyright extention act. Now copyright’s life+70 years, also to be applied retroactively. So 1984’s still under copyright until 2020. That each of these extensions occurred within a year or so of the copyright’s end is entirely coincidental for Mr. Orwell. The real culprit is Disney (but that’s another story altogether). Yeah, I realized the statement you made was rhetorical in nature, but…well, there you go. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/59 "2009-07-20T21:54:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They set up a system that would be unacceptable in traditional products; but because it’s new I’m supposed to just shrug and not care. People wouldn’t buy books or cars or clothing that was wired for remote destruction by the seller; but somehow it’s considered OK to do that with data and programs. I agree with Der Trihs on this. And that is something you won’t find me saying just every day, or month. But I have been out in the sun all day. 😛 Very well stated and my point of view on this new device too. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/60 "2009-07-20T22:14:14Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > Rather than being either an act of censorship OR a justified response to copyright infringement, I’m disappointed this wasn’t a publicity stunt. > > Or… was it? :dons tinfoil hat: Whose publicity would it have helped? Lots of people are looking askance at Amazon now that they’ve shown they can remove content from your library, and MobileReference is totally discredited, not that anyone knew who they were until now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529.md?page=4)