# Mass Electronic Deletion of novel "1984" from Amazon Kindle. Link **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 19, 2009, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529 "2009-07-19T12:07:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/61 "2009-07-20T23:49:44Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > No, I didn’t, but I suspect you did. Well since you clearly didn’t. The point is that if copyright is supposed to encourage innovation it stifled innovation if it can support your kids and grandkids. ---
**Author:** ![Roadfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc348/32.png) [@Roadfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roadfood)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/62 "2009-07-20T23:54:31Z")
> [@ghardester](#): > > I agree with Der Trihs on this. And that is something you won’t find me saying just every day, or month. But I have been out in the sun all day. 😛 > > Very well stated and my point of view on this new device too. Yeah, I gotta third this. What Der Trihs said so well in the quoted paragraph is apparently being lost in this rather bizarre debate from Sage Rat. Amazon has demonstrated that they have the ability – and believe that they had the right – to _steal_\* something from people who had purchased and paid for it in good faith. I find it extremely sad that some people find this acceptable, sadder that they believe Amazon was totally justified, and unbelievably sad that some actually think Amazon is praiseworthy because they refunded the money for the stolen item! Look at it this way: If you bought a physical book from Barnes & Noble, then came home one night to find the book gone and in it’s place was the money you had paid for it and a note from B&N that said, “Sorry, we discovered that we didn’t have the right to sell this to you”, would you really be ok with that? Would you really _thank_ B&N for refunding your money? \*Yes, steal. If I make an illegal copy of Microsoft Word, the Microsoft corporation considers that to be theft. So when the shoe is on the other foot, and the act is to delete a legally obtained copy, that is just as equally theft. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/63 "2009-07-21T00:23:50Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > Near as I can tell, Mobile Reference is based in Canada, so they are free to own copies of a book that’s in the public domain. That doesn’t mean they have the right to sell it in the US, but they have every right to their own versions. Similar deal with those Russian MP3 sites. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/64 "2009-07-21T00:34:50Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well since you clearly didn’t. The point is that if copyright is supposed to encourage innovation it stifled innovation if it can support your kids and grandkids. You just proved that you didn’t get the point of your own comment, because the above statement is bullshit. If a best-selling book is a cash cow that can support not only you but your heirs and assigns as well, I’d say that’s a pretty good incentive to produce one. How is the fact that _1984_ is protected by copyright stopping you from producing something else equally as brilliant and important? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/65 "2009-07-21T00:36:57Z")
> [@Roadfood](#): > > Yeah, I gotta third this. What Der Trihs said so well in the quoted paragraph is apparently being lost in this rather bizarre debate from Sage Rat. Amazon has demonstrated that they have the ability – and believe that they had the right – to _steal_\* something from people who had purchased and paid for it in good faith. The quoted paragraph isn’t the one that started the debate with myself. While I am not pro-copyright infringement, the tangential debate had nothing to do with that issue. I was just pointing out a rather odd bit of doublespeak in calling theft equivalent to censorship. Certain there can be cases of theft where it was -also- censorship. But theft of a written work is not eo ipso censorship. It’s purely a matter of dictionary definition. They’re two separate words with different meanings. And more importantly, again, pointing out dictionary definitions has no relevance towards copyright issues. I wasn’t discussing it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/66 "2009-07-21T00:42:11Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The quoted paragraph isn’t the one that started the debate with myself. While I am not pro-copyright infringement, the tangential debate had nothing to do with that issue. I was just pointing out a rather odd bit of doublespeak in calling theft equivalent to censorship. But the person trying to claim that equivalence is you. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/67 "2009-07-21T01:57:05Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > How is the fact that _1984_ is protected by copyright stopping you from producing something else equally as brilliant and important? [The Wind Done Gone - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wind_Done_Gone) (see legal controversy) Art has always drawn from and commented on previous art. Music, films, literature, everything. It has a chilling effect when in the 21st century authors know they will be sued for parodying a novel from 1936. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/68 "2009-07-21T02:45:37Z")
I just took my paperback copy off the shelf, kissed it, and opened it up. This seems like a good time to re-read it for the umpteenth time. “It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen…” p.s. The preface of this edition is by Walter Cronkite. Interesting that he and the book were both deleted within a couple of days of each other. (With apologies to Mr. Cronkite.) ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/69 "2009-07-21T02:51:25Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > I just took my paperback copy off the shelf, kissed it, and opened it up. This seems like a good time to re-read it for the umpteenth time. > > “It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen…” > p.s. The preface of this edition is by Walter Cronkite. Interesting that he and the book were both deleted within a couple of days of each other. (With apologies to Mr. Cronkite.) Uhm… if you’ll look again, you’ll see that it was a cloudy but warm day in August, and the clocks were striking ten. I mean, comon, the book has _always_ said that. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/70 "2009-07-21T04:30:46Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > Art has always drawn from and commented on previous art. Music, films, literature, everything. It has a chilling effect when in the 21st century authors know they will be sued for parodying a novel from 1936. Copyright law allows for parody and commentary. I have read neither _Gone with the Wind_ nor _The Wind Done Gone_, but my uninformed opinion on that specific case is that the latter sounds like a legitimate commentary and the decision was probably wrong. If so, that’s a fault of the judge, not of the concept of extended copyright. The fact that the book in question is old doesn’t make it any more or less fair game. You should legally be able to publish a parody of _The Da Vinci Code_ just as easily as one of _Gone with the Wind_, _1984_, or _The Canterbury Tales_. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/71 "2009-07-21T14:02:52Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Uhm… if you’ll look again, you’ll see that it was a cloudy but warm day in August, and the clocks were striking ten. > > I mean, comon, the book has _always_ said that. 😉 Nope. It says what I said it says…how do I know that? Because I have it on paper. I know you were just joking, but frankly, this shit scares me. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/72 "2009-07-21T19:28:41Z")
Yeah - its one thing to retroactively fix a theft. But will someone someday decide to retroactively fix libel, sedition, obscenity, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/73 "2009-07-21T20:24:55Z")
I still have 1984 on my Kindle, but I could have sworn that when I was reading it earlier it said we are at war with Eurasia. Now it says we’re at war with Eastasia? Anyone know which is right? Of all the unfortunate books they could do this to; I guess _Fahrenheit 451_’s publishers are less wishy washy. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/74 "2009-07-21T20:29:53Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Of all the unfortunate books they could do this to; I guess _Fahrenheit 451_’s publishers are less wishy washy. As someone said elsewhere, if it had been _Fahrenheit 451_ they would have remotely ignited the Kindles instead. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/75 "2009-07-21T21:05:23Z")
> [@Estilicon](#): > > Don’t you find the whole situation pretty disturbing? In the “cloud” where we are apparently going to live for the next era, nothing really belongs to you I don’t find it at all disturbing. If I buy stolen property, it doesn’t really belong to me, and this has been true since long before the digital era. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/76 "2009-07-21T21:35:02Z")
I’m sorry but if you don’t recognize that it was always during a hurricane in July, then I will be forced to lock you into a room filled with insects…wait, wrong ironic situation. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529/77 "2009-07-21T21:51:16Z")
**Scruff** said: > [@](#): > > Amazon did not delete the book from everybody’s Kindles. They deleted the book from the cloud (that mythical semi-real place where your ebooks “live” on the internet). Then when the Kindle next called the mothership (to update subscriptions, get new books, see what was going on), the local copy was deleted because it was gone from your library. Uh, if the copy disappeared from everybody’s\* personal Kindle, then yes, Amazon did delete the book from everybody’s Kindle. The mechanism was more circuitous than just “punch the _delete all_ button”, but the effect was the same. Amazon sent a delete command, and the copy disappeared from Kindles. \*Everybody meaning the people effected, which may not have been all Kindle owners who had a copy of this version of the books. **Bosstone** said: > [@](#): > > The relevant distinction is that Amazon did not actively go onto people’s Kindles and actually delete the file there. It got deleted because of the way the Kindles synchronize with home base. In the context of whether or not you’re allowed to keep a book you paid for, the distinction isn’t relevant, but in the context of personal privacy, it does matter. Amazon deleted their copy, not each individual copy residing on each individual Kindle. It just happens that Kindles are designed to make sure both you and Amazon each have a copy. Actually, the relevant thing is that Kindles are designed to ensure that your records match Amazon’s. So if Amazon says you don’t have a copy and you do, it deletes it. If Amazon says the book should be called _1983 1/2_, then your copy will be swapped. The effect on each individual Kindle was the deletion of the books. So regardless of the mechanism, yes, Amazon did reach out and delete the copies off the Kindles. **Sage Rat** , I agree this wasn’t censorship per se. Still scary in the implications for how it _could_ be used for censorship, but censorship has not occurred yet. But that doesn’t make me feel any better about the incident. **RealityChuck** said: > [@](#): > > Your money was stolen from you. This is, in fact, wrong. Individual purchasers did not have money stolen by buying the copy of the book from Amazon. Money was stolen from the publisher and copyright holders in the U.S. so theft occurred, but not theft from the individual buyers. Theft occurred to them when the copy was retrieved/deleted. Of course, refunding their money offsets that, but it is an annoyance and a frustration and a PR problem for Amazon/Kindle. > [@](#): > > Instead of paying it to the Orwell estate and their publisher, you paid it to someone who had no right to sell you the book. If you have any respect for Orwell at all, you should see that the book was ripped off\* and that no one should benefit from that crime – not the person ripping off the estate, nor you by having the pirated copy. Amazon credited your account, too; as others have pointed out, you wouldn’t get that if you bought a pirated hard copy. But technically, the individual customers did not buy the copy from an illegal source. They bought from Amazon, who apparently has legal copies to sell as well. The one in error was Amazon, for not ensuring they were buying a legal copy from a legal source. Surely Amazon should have just paid the publisher/rights owner instead, or supplied a valid copy to the users in place of the invalid one (although that perhaps still bridges the censorship concerns). The crime was not in owning the book. The crime was in not paying the American rights owner for selling it in America. The solution is not to get rid of the book, but pay the rights owner. Amazon being the ones at fault should have been the ones penalized. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-electronic-deletion-of-novel-1984-from-amazon-kindle-link/503529.md?page=3)