# Mass immigration- what's to be done? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909 "2015-09-04T15:24:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/201 "2015-09-06T22:01:01Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Why just the Western world? Why not China, India, Japan, S Korea, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Dubai, Keyna, Senegal, Israel, Taiwan, Brazil, etc? With the exception of Brazil, none of those countries have much history or success with immigrants of diverse backgrounds. In spite of the current political climate, only the Western Hemisphere and perhaps Australia can claim much success at a being a “melting pot”. As one who was raised as a Christian in the U.S., I know that congregations have often assisted with mass immigration of refugees. We should be able to do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/202 "2015-09-06T22:05:56Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > With the exception of Brazil, none of those countries have much history or success with immigrants of diverse backgrounds. The more for them to learn then to be sure. I sure, for instance large parts of Africa could learn immensly from a large European immigration wave. > [@jasg](#): > > In spite of the current political climate, only the Western Hemisphere and perhaps Australia can claim much success at a being a “melting pot”. Europe has an absolutely atrocious success rate at integrating and assimilating immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/203 "2015-09-06T22:09:04Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Why just the Western world? Why not China, India, Japan, S Korea, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Dubai, Keyna, Senegal, Israel, Taiwan, Brazil, etc? Let’s look at some numbers. China- 300,000 India- 185,000 Japan- 2,600 Saudi Arabia- 600 Kuwait- 300 UAE- 600 Kenya- 650,000 Senegal- 20,000 Israel- 41,000 Taiwan-unknown Brazil- 4,500 For comparison, Iceland generously agreed to take 50 Syrians. Not everyone is a stellar performer (but to be fair, the gulf states host millions of guest workers). But your theory that only Europe hosts refugees is nuts. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/204 "2015-09-06T22:49:45Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The more for them to learn then to be sure. I sure, for instance large parts of Africa could learn immensly from a large European immigration wave. I think that was tried a century or two ago… The Chinese seem to be trying again - I hope (but doubt) it will turn out better this time. At best, Africa might do better with African refugees but the waves of economic migrants makes me skeptical. The cultural barriers to assimilation and citizenship for immigrants in the Mid and Far East are far more difficult to overcome with “learning” than the political obstacles in the U.S. and other nations. > [@](#): > > Europe has an absolutely atrocious success rate at integrating and assimilating immigrants. Sad but true. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/205 "2015-09-06T22:49:47Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Let’s look at some numbers. > > China- 300,000 > India- 185,000 > Japan- 2,600 > Saudi Arabia- 600 > Kuwait- 300 > UAE- 600 > Kenya- 650,000 > Senegal- 20,000 > Israel- 41,000 > Taiwan-unknown > Brazil- 4,500 > > For comparison, Iceland generously agreed to take 50 Syrians. So that puts China and India in about the same category as Iceland, compared to population. Righty. > [@even\_sven](#): > > Not everyone is a stellar performer (but to be fair, the gulf states host millions of guest workers). We can’t be bothered to take in any refugees from neighboring countries but to be fair, we do host millions of third world workers which we give no rights and work like slaves. > [@even\_sven](#): > > But your theory that only Europe hosts refugees is nuts. Did you even read what I wrote? I specifically replied to this: “… but I would expand the challenge to every religious congregation and school in the **western world**.” Take up the issue of Western Exceptionalism with jasg. He’s the one that subscribes to it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/206 "2015-09-06T23:55:11Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Well, yes. Not like the way people died in that truck. > [@](#): > > People seem to be under the impression that refugee camps are like a slightly dull all expenses paid vacation. Who are these people who think that? > [@](#): > > They are not. Refugee camps are not safe places. Policing is extremely limited, if present at all, and hosting police may be corrupt and unlikely to protect refugees. Access to justice systems is spotty. > > People live in temporary structures that offer no protection against criminals. There generally is not adequate lighting. The streets are dangerous and the housing is dangerous. Rape and crimes against children are common. Fear is constant. > > One has no freedom in a camp. It’s more or less an open air prison. Refugees face sharply restricted movement, sometimes with a system of passes. Often they cannot work, and some countries even ban small enterprises like cutting hair or selling small crafts within the camp to other residents. Gatherings may be banned. Families may not be able to reunite without navigating a long and complex system. Political activity is banned. People are trapped with literally nothing that they are allowed to do, in miserable conditions, and no prospect of it ever being better. > > And while an attempt is made in established camps to provide for basic need, it doesn’t always work and resources are always low. Food is limited and often consists of basic grain and little else. Refugees have to stand in Soviet style breadlines of hours and hours several times a week to get these basic provisions. Sanitation may not be adequate to prevent diseases. The shower blocks are notorious for sexual assault. Even things like “getting tampons or pads for your period” are things that don’t always happen. Medical care is limited to the most acute problems (you aren’t getting much care for chronic diseases or mental health) in poor conditions (patients sleeping on the ground, inadequate drug supply, etc.) Kids may not have access to school or even basic things like playgrounds. There is nothing for them to do- no activities, no place to play, nothing. Housing is unsafe, may not adequate protect from the elements, and be dangerous to children (I remember one little girl drowned in Juba because the camps were chronically flooded and people were sleeping in inches of water.) > > And remember, you can’t work so you can’t work a little harder to buy more than the five tampons you are issued a month. > > Refugee camps work for a few weeks or months while people wait out a limited crisis. But when refugees are detained in camps for years or decades, unable to live a productive life or provide hope of something better for their children, they leave. When a crisis shows no sign of resolving- and Syria is not- the people forced to flee need to become a full part of a different community somewhere. Permanent refugee camps are not a viable life for people. All true. It sucks to be a refugee. But being one doesn’t give you a free pass to the country of your choice. Germany and Sweden are being very generous. I suspect that generocity has a limit, though. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/207 "2015-09-07T01:06:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > All true. It sucks to be a refugee. But being one doesn’t give you a free pass to the country of your choice. Germany and Sweden are being very generous. I suspect that generocity has a limit, though. I was going to write something more coherent, but frankly it is disgusting for you to say that people who were forced from their homes and their lives by some of the most horrific violence we’ve seen in a generation, and then undertaken a journey that is known to be extraordinarily deadly, killing thousands each year, as having a “free pass” to anything. Disgusting. Absolutely a disgusting, inhuman, arrogant and callous way to phrase that. Shame on you. Especially since you are the one who actually got a “free pass” to the thing people are dying to get. Refugees are part and parcel of the modern world. When people cannot return safely to their homes, they need to have a place where they can live as free, legal, permanent residents with the freedom to work. That’s the practical reality- people will not waste the only life they have in a camp. If we want refugees to immigrate in a way that is organized and distributed across countries in a way that makes sense, we need to work together as an international community to do that. But as long as epople are playing games (and Europe is setting a fine example of this,) refugees will go wherever it makes the most sense for them according to whatever means are available to them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/208 "2015-09-07T01:20:17Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I was going to write something more coherent, but frankly it is disgusting for you to say that people who were forced from their homes and their lives by some of the most horrific violence we’ve seen in a generation, and then undertaken a journey that is known to be extraordinarily deadly, killing thousands each year, as having a “free pass” to anything. Disgusting. Absolutely a disgusting, inhuman, arrogant and callous way to phrase that. Shame on you. > > Especially since you are the one who actually got a “free pass” to the thing people are dying to get. > > Refugees are part and parcel of the modern world. When people cannot return safely to their homes, they need to have a place where they can live as free, legal, permanent residents with the freedom to work. That’s the practical reality- people will not waste the only life they have in a camp. > > If we want refugees to immigrate in a way that is organized and distributed across countries in a way that makes sense, we need to work together as an international community to do that. But as long as epople are playing games (and Europe is setting a fine example of this,) refugees will go wherever it makes the most sense for them according to whatever means are available to them. Oh, please. I didn’t realize that I had to genuflect before entering the church of discussion about holy refugees. Well, I’ve not been the church going type for decades, so I’m not about to start now. I have every bit as much sympathy for these folks as you do. If I were in their place, I’d probably be doing the exact same thing. But facts are facts, and people in this thread are acting as if these refugees have A LEGAL RIGHT to pick the country they will be refugees in. They don’t. If that upsets you, don’t blame me for pointing out a fact. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/209 "2015-09-07T01:27:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > All true. It sucks to be a refugee. But being one doesn’t give you a free pass to the country of your choice. Germany and Sweden are being very generous. I suspect that generocity has a limit, though. I agree about Germany and Sweden – the rest of Europe (and Israel, the US, and others) should follow their examples, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/210 "2015-09-07T01:30:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I agree about Germany and Sweden – the rest of Europe (and Israel, the US, and others) should follow their examples, in my opinion. Agree. And the US should shoulder much more of the burden, too. But it’s still unclear to me that these refugees, suffering as they are, should be granted residency without regard to returning to their native country should the civil war come to end at some point. Some have legit asylum claims, but I can’t believe that all or even most do. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/211 "2015-09-07T01:34:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Oh, please. I didn’t realize that I had to genuflect before entering the church of discussion about holy refugees. Well, I’ve not been the church going type for decades, so I’m not about to start now. Here are the “refugees” [being offered help](https://www.facebook.com/jakob.jaky.diener/videos/10200958595002851/) in Hungary. Guess that’s how “needy people” behave. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/212 "2015-09-07T01:38:05Z")
Here’s one “refugee”'s [salute to his hosts](https://www.facebook.com/1644223249150804/videos/1653675254872270/). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/213 "2015-09-07T01:43:03Z")
Let’s all find videos of brown people behaving badly! ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/214 "2015-09-07T01:58:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Let’s all find videos of brown people behaving badly! They look pretty white to me. Adjust your monitor. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/215 "2015-09-07T02:04:18Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Especially since you are the one who actually got a “free pass” to the thing people are dying to get. > > . I wonder what the widows and children of every U.S. Serviceman who died since this Country was born would have thought of your “free pass”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/216 "2015-09-07T02:20:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > They look pretty white to me. Adjust your monitor. That makes all the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/217 "2015-09-07T03:27:04Z")
It does, because it proves that Terr’s accusation isn’t based on racism. I see no reason why a healthy young man who threatens to kill his benefactors shouldn’t be on the next train to the middle east. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/218 "2015-09-07T03:36:00Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > I wonder what the widows and children of every U.S. Serviceman who died since this Country was born would have thought of your “free pass”? I do remember when the first Gulf war happened I heard a report about a soldier that saw in a tv in the middle east the protests that then took place in the USA against the war. The soldier just commented that he believed and agreed that he was risking his life and was willing to die so they would had the right to be free to protest. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/219 "2015-09-07T03:39:00Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > It does, because it proves that Terr’s accusation isn’t based on racism. I never said it did; I was mocking his video links because one can easily find videos of individuals from pretty much every single ethnic, national, and religious group behaving badly, and such videos prove nothing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/220 "2015-09-07T03:39:34Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > It does, because it proves that Terr’s accusation isn’t based on racism. I have found that nativism is not much better. > [@Construct](#): > > I see no reason why a healthy young man who threatens to kill his benefactors shouldn’t be on the next train to the middle east. And as seen by most of all the pictures and testimonials is that only very few of all those refugees are dumb like that and that need to be sent back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909.md?page=12)