# Mass immigration- what's to be done? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909 "2015-09-04T15:24:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/101 "2015-09-06T02:44:24Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Aside for attacks on media and cartoonists, I’m not sure I know of a single attack in the west that hasn’t been a response to western imperialism. I’ve already mentioned the stabbing of Bertrand Delanoe, motivated by Delanoe being gay. Was that a response to western imperialism? Terrorists linked to Iran have committed [two major bombings](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/argentina.html) in Argentina that killed over 100, including children. Are Jewish children in Argentina western imperialists? There have been [Islamic terrorist attacks](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/10/26/extremist-ideology-drove-canadian-terror-attack/17975139/) in Canada. Canada has never invaded any Islamic country as far as I know. You surely have heard about Boko Haram abducting hundreds of Christian schoolgirls in Nigeria. About the [beheading](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4387604.stm) of Christian schoolgirls in Indonesia. And then there are those attacks on cartoonists, which you seem to already be aware of. Islamic terrorist groups such as Al Queda, ISIS, Boko Haram, and Islamic Jihad had all people who are not Muslims, and believe that they have a religious duty to wage war on all non-Muslims. Western imperialism has nothing to do with it, though it may be occasionally invoked as an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/102 "2015-09-06T03:37:23Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > There have been [Islamic terrorist attacks](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/10/26/extremist-ideology-drove-canadian-terror-attack/17975139/) in Canada. Canada has never invaded any Islamic country as far as I know. [Gulf War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War#Canada) [Iraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Iraq_War#Military_participation) [Afghanistan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_role_in_the_Afghanistan_War) [Libya](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mobile) [ISIL](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Impact) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/103 "2015-09-06T04:09:16Z")
Personally I have trouble calling that lone gunman, who only managed to kill one person, an “Islamic terrorist attack”. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/104 "2015-09-06T06:53:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Evasion. The brouhaha is not about them fleeing from Syria or Lybia. It is about them fleeing on from Turkey, Greece and Hungary. No it is not. You are making it very easy for yourself there. The refugees arriving in Germany these days are not Greek, Turkish or Hungarian. They are Syrian. Basically what you are saying is that we should not be helping the refugees, because Turkey can do it. A very selfish point of view. Which brings me back to the Swiss and the Jews back in WW2. A main reason wh Switzerland started turning back Jews was that they were feeling overburdened by their numbers. They might very well have taken them all in had there been anybody that they could pass some of them on to. Of course with Switzerland surrounded by the axis powers that was hardly possible. But Turkey, the Lebanon or Jordan are not surrounded. We can take some of the refugees of their hands. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/105 "2015-09-06T07:07:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Maybe the Vietnamese are particularly good at assimilating. The Vietnamese boat people that were picked up by the Israeli ships in the late 70s that now live in Israel are fluent-Hebrew-speaking, IDF-serving, mangal-outing-going Israelis. Maybe it’s instructive her to note that Steve Jobs’ biological father was a Syrian migrant. Yes THAT Steve Jobs. Notable of course was Steve’s dad who never saw his son, but that was because the father of Steve’s mom forbade Steve’s dad from marrying her because he was Muslim. But Steve’s father was very intelligent and worked as an assistant professor in the US and then went into the gaming industry. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/106 "2015-09-06T07:11:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. In one case the turning away was toward death. On the other the turning away is toward bad living conditions and lack of employment. Don’t compare things that cannot be compared. Nonsense. If you were living in a place where the local ruler finds it appropriate to have his airforce drop barrel bombs on civilian living quarters you might find it advisable to pick up your family and move elsewhere. Once uprooted in this way, where would you go? You cannot stay in a Turkish tent camp forever. So you will of course turn to the place where you are feeling you are most likely to have something you can call a life. Almost every country in Europe can offer them that. So can the US, Canada, even Russia. If all of them really did, the numbers for each country would no longer be all that intimidating. Besides - what is the alternative? You keep talking about turning the refugees back. Back to where? Turkey is under no legal obligation to take them back. Why would they? They have enough refugees as it is. By invoking the Dublin Regulation Germany could perhaps send them back to Greece, but what problems would that solve? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/107 "2015-09-06T09:39:28Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’ve already mentioned the stabbing of Bertrand Delanoe, motivated by Delanoe being gay. Was that a response to western imperialism? > > Terrorists linked to Iran have committed [two major bombings](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/argentina.html) in Argentina that killed over 100, including children. Are Jewish children in Argentina western imperialists? > > There have been [Islamic terrorist attacks](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/10/26/extremist-ideology-drove-canadian-terror-attack/17975139/) in Canada. Canada has never invaded any Islamic country as far as I know. > > You surely have heard about Boko Haram abducting hundreds of Christian schoolgirls in Nigeria. About the [beheading](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4387604.stm) of Christian schoolgirls in Indonesia. And then there are those attacks on cartoonists, which you seem to already be aware of. > > Islamic terrorist groups such as Al Queda, ISIS, Boko Haram, and Islamic Jihad had all people who are not Muslims, and believe that they have a religious duty to wage war on all non-Muslims. Western imperialism has nothing to do with it, though it may be occasionally invoked as an excuse. para 1: there must be 10 stabbings a night in large US cities, never mind shootings, never mind attacks on gays. Wkipedia says: > [@](#): > > Delanoë was stabbed on 5 October 2002 during the Nuit Blanche, a night of festivities in Paris, while mingling with the public. His assailant was a Muslim immigrant, Azedine Berkane, who reportedly told police that “he hated politicians, the Socialist Party, and homosexuals.” Speaking to Le Monde, one of his neighbors said, “He was a bit like us. We’re all homophobic here because it’s not natural.” I’m seeing a messed up idiot - help me out with the terrah. para 2: Dude, a response to Israeli imperialism _sigh_ para 3: **camille** has already kindly helped you out with that para 4: Boko Haram, like ISIS, is a fucked up response to imperialism - Nigeria enjoys huge production and reserves of oil and yet is categorised as a failed state. We all know how that story goes. Back to the point. The leader of the 7/7 attacks on London: > [@](#): > > Your democratically-elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters. Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight. As mentioned, Blair had been re-elected after it was known the WMD pretext was bogus. The above seems a position several magnitudes of sanity more reasonable than the aims of The Project for a New American Century - broadly the ideology that led to the war on Iraq: > **[Project for the New American Century](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century)** > > Defunct > Newspapers > Journals ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/108 "2015-09-06T12:34:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Evasion. The brouhaha is not about them fleeing from Syria or Lybia. It is about them fleeing on from Turkey, Greece and Hungary. So in the cases in which the refugees can’t stay in those countries for various reasons, do you think the other European countries should be criticized if they don’t accept them? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/109 "2015-09-06T14:36:49Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > No it is not. You are making it very easy for yourself there. The refugees arriving in Germany these days are not Greek, Turkish or Hungarian. They are Syrian. The refugees are arriving in Greece and Turkey. Those arriving in Germany, Hungary, UK are economic migrants. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/110 "2015-09-06T14:38:41Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Nonsense. If you were living in a place where the local ruler finds it appropriate to have his airforce drop barrel bombs on civilian living quarters you might find it advisable to pick up your family and move elsewhere. Once uprooted in this way, where would you go? You cannot stay in a Turkish tent camp forever. So you will of course turn to the place where you are feeling you are most likely to have something you can call a life. Yes. That’s called “economic migrant”. Not “refugee”. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/111 "2015-09-06T14:40:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So in the cases in which the refugees can’t stay in those countries for various reasons, do you think the other European countries should be criticized if they don’t accept them? You’re moving the goalposts. Are you dropping your claim that the people clamoring to get into Germany are fleeing from “horrors”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/112 "2015-09-06T14:43:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You’re moving the goalposts. Are you dropping your claim that the people clamoring to get into Germany are fleeing from “horrors”? No, because I believe many of them are. Maybe some had a chance to stop elsewhere and chose to continue on, but I believe that many had no such choice. Do you believe all of them had a choice? That not a single one, including not a single child among them, had no choice but to try and get into these latest countries? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/113 "2015-09-06T14:49:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, because I believe many of them are. Maybe some had a chance to stop elsewhere and chose to continue on, but I believe that many had no such choice. Do you believe all of them had a choice? That not a single one, including not a single child among them, had no choice but to try and get into these latest countries? They have a choice to stay in the first country they cross into from theirs. The civil war that they are fleeing from is a “horror”, but it doesn’t extend into the country to which they flee. When they decide to flee from the second country (and yes, it’s a choice, no one is expelling them with a gun to their back), they are economic migrants. They may have good economic reasons to continue on. But they are not in any way fleeing “horrors” anymore. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/114 "2015-09-06T14:52:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > They have a choice to stay in the first country they cross into from theirs. The civil war that they are fleeing from is a “horror”, but it doesn’t extend into the country to which they flee. When they decide to flee from the second country (and yes, it’s a choice, no one is expelling them with a gun to their back), they are economic migrants. They may have good economic reasons to continue on. But they are not in any way fleeing “horrors” anymore. I don’t believe that every single one had this choice. You do. That’s the difference, or at least the major one, it seems. If you believed that there was some non-zero chance that some small number of them might not have had this choice – that there may have been a slight chance of other factors (such as officials telling them “you must go on or you will be jailed” or something like that, or violence or threats, or something else) that may have been involved that forced some of them onwards – would you agree with me? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/115 "2015-09-06T15:05:05Z")
The latest leader to reject Syrian refugees? [Netanyahu](http://news.yahoo.com/israels-netanyahu-rejects-call-syrian-refugees-113507073.html). I’m not Israeli, but if I were I would agree with Herzog that they should accept some of the fleeing refugees. Netanyahu’s argument only applies to the idea of accepting millions – they could easily accept some small number of refugees without upsetting demographic concerns and swamping the small country of Israel. And in this case, they didn’t pass through Hungary, Turkey, and Greece. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/116 "2015-09-06T15:06:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t believe that every single one had this choice. You do. That’s the difference, or at least the major one, it seems. Show me where they are being expelled from those countries with a gun at their back. Or any “horrors” happening to them there. And what is it with the “every single one” fallacy that you constantly bring up? So - if ONE person has no choice, that means that a million people should be called “refugees”? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/117 "2015-09-06T15:08:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The latest leader to reject Syrian refugees? [Netanyahu](http://news.yahoo.com/israels-netanyahu-rejects-call-syrian-refugees-113507073.html). I’m not Israeli, but if I were I would agree with Herzog that they should accept some of the fleeing refugees. Israelis already treat some Syrians that are injured in the civil war across the border. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/118 "2015-09-06T15:09:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Show me where they are being expelled from those countries with a gun at their back. Or any “horrors” happening to them there. All of the interviews with refugees that I’ve seen include a statement of something to the effect of “we had no other choice”. I don’t believe that every single one are lying. > [@](#): > > And what is it with the “every single one” fallacy that you constantly bring up? So - if ONE person has no choice, that means that a million people should be called “refugees”? I generally believe that fleeing migrants should be believed, and they consider themselves refugees, so I take their word. I don’t think every country should accept every refugee, but most European countries (and Israel) could take more, in my view. I’ll add the US to this – the US should take some number of refugees as well, if possible. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/119 "2015-09-06T15:10:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Israelis already treat some Syrians that are injured in the civil war across the border. That’s good, but that’s not the same thing as accepting and sheltering some of the fleeing refugees. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909/120 "2015-09-06T15:12:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > All of the interviews with refugees that I’ve seen include a statement of something to the effect of “we had no other choice”. That’s what every economic migrant says. > [@](#): > > I generally believe that fleeing migrants should be believed, and they consider themselves refugees, so I take their word. You do - I suggest you petition to invite a Syrian family and host it in your house. Every refugee law that I know of requires proof of “no choice” or “horrors”. Not a statement of it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-immigration-whats-to-be-done/729909.md?page=7)