# Mass murder on the high seas (Venezuelan "drug boat") **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 10, 2025, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910 "2025-09-10T13:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/221 "2025-12-03T11:41:53Z")
If it is determined to be a war crime by The Hague, war crime charges follow for life, correct? If that is correct, then Hegseth should probably never vacation in Europe ever, right? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/222 "2025-12-03T12:07:08Z")
Hegseth: “Fog of War” Inigo Montoya: You keep using that [term]. I do not think it means what you think it means. > The **fog of war** is the [uncertainty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty "Uncertainty") in [situational awareness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_awareness "Situational awareness") experienced by participants in [military operations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_operations "Military operations").[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_of_war#cite_note-1) The term seeks to capture the uncertainty regarding one’s own capability, adversary capability, and adversary [intent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intent_(Military) "Intent (Military)") during an engagement, operation, or campaign. Military forces try to reduce the fog of war through [military intelligence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_intelligence "Military intelligence") and friendly force tracking systems. > **[Fog of war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_of_war)** > > The fog of war is the uncertainty in situational awareness experienced by participants in military operations. The term seeks to capture the uncertainty regarding one's own capability, adversary capability, and adversary intent during an engagement, operation, or campaign. Military forces try to reduce the fog of war through military intelligence and friendly force tracking systems. > The term has become commonly used to define uncertainty mechanics in wargames. > The word "fog" (German: Nebel), ... ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/223 "2025-12-03T16:48:27Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > I hope someone who was present speaks up and names names. Or one of us here could get added to the Signal chat and report back? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/224 "2025-12-03T16:52:13Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Hegseth: “Fog of War” He seems to think it literally means actual fog or smoke that you can’t see through, so it’s OK to blow up shipwrecked survivors. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/225 "2025-12-03T16:53:08Z")
> [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](#): > > If it is determined to be a war crime by The Hague, war crime charges follow for life, correct? I think it’s been mentioned upthread, but I’ll just put this here: Heinz-Wilhelm Eck (27 March 1916 – 30 November 1945) was a German U-boat commander of the Second World War who was tried, convicted, condemned and executed after the war for ordering his crew to shoot the survivors of a Greek merchantman sunk by U-852. ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/226 "2025-12-03T18:23:15Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Heinz-Wilhelm Eck (27 March 1916 – 30 November 1945) was a German U-boat commander of the Second World War who was tried, convicted, condemned and executed after the war for ordering his crew to shoot the survivors of a Greek merchantman sunk by U-852. I was not doubting that fact (or the person who posted it). I was merely seeking to ascertain if there is a / any statute of limitations for war crimes or if they would follow the individual for life. I don’t want to be caught in social conversation indicating that Secretary Vodka, if charged, should probably limit his vacation spots to places which have stated that they would not arrest him and ship him to The Hague when his plane lands. I know that some NAZIs were chased for many decades before being caught and extradited for trial. I wanted to be sure of my facts. The last thing I’d want to hear is some load-mouth spouting, “Oh yeah? Where do you get your legal information? Paramount Studios?” ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/227 "2025-12-03T18:25:38Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > He seems to think it literally means actual fog or smoke that you can’t see through, so it’s OK to blow up shipwrecked survivors. That, of course, is my point. ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/228 "2025-12-03T18:37:56Z")
It’s too late to add a PS I know… but… here goes: I know they are throwing the Admiral under the bus… I know that they are now throwing Secretary Vodka ( a man with a long history of using unencrypted communication) under the bus now too. But… what if it could be proven that the War Crime order came from a fat greasy man in a red suit? “You mean… Santa?” “No… a red ketchup-stained suit.” I mean, Trump isn’t going to be president forever… ( Ho ho ho ) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/229 "2025-12-03T19:11:51Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > Why are the generals not refusing? Are their cushy jobs worth more than any integrity or common decency? > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I don’t think it’s about their cushy jobs. They have been following orders without question for so long, it’s been drilled into them. This is true all down the line. There is another reality here to keep in mind and that is that to quite a few people killing “criminals” is morally just fine. You kill them because they’re criminals, which is fine because they chose to be criminals. You see this in the earlier reaction to [Duterte’s drug war in the Philippines](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_drug_war) when he was even urging the public to commit extrajudicial killings of drug addicts. I saw a couple newspaper op-eds from Americans and I had a couple of co-workers praising such “get tough” rhetoric as the necessary response to the drug problem. The career military is just naturally going to have a higher proportion of ‘you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet’ sort of people. Some commanders, like very possibly this admiral, callously just don’t give a shit about people they assume are criminals. Their view on minorities or Christianity may have nothing to do with it. They simply don’t care about the lives of people they assume have done wrong. What if the two survivors happened to have been a just a guy hired as a cook and the teenage son he brought along to do grunt work because they needed the money? Tough shit for them, apparently. Shouldn’t have taken a job on a drug smuggling boat. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/230 "2025-12-03T19:44:21Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > Why are the generals not refusing? Are their cushy jobs worth more than any integrity or common decency? Because soldiers are trained to follow orders. This is how they usually behave. The idea that American soldiers are more noble than other soldiers, or that the one mention they get in training of not following illegal orders is actually going to take, is American exceptionalist bullshit. (Yes, other countries are prone to their own versions of this myth.) If asked to do something illegal, like murdering shipwrecked people, most American servicemen and women will do it without a second thought. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/231 "2025-12-03T19:53:00Z")
One thing I’ve heard on this board and elsewhere during Trump’s terms in office is that he’s a bad president but we don’t have to worry about a fascist takeover because the US military would never go along with a dictator. I didn’t believe it then and I believe it less now. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2025, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/232 "2025-12-04T02:52:16Z")
Turns out the admiral Trump and Hegseth are throwing under the bus is also a piece of shit - he intends to tell Congress the two survivors were legitimate targets because by clinging to the floundering wreckage of their boat they were “attempting to continue their drug run”. [https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/survivors-of-boat-strike-were-actively-continuing-drug-mission-admiral-to-tell-lawmakers-b82f0ab3](https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/survivors-of-boat-strike-were-actively-continuing-drug-mission-admiral-to-tell-lawmakers-b82f0ab3) ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2025, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/233 "2025-12-04T02:59:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Turns out the admiral Trump and Hegseth are throwing under the bus is also a piece of shit - he intends to tell Congress the two survivors were legitimate targets He’s got to say something to try to save his skin if he’s the person who gave the command. Too bad for him he couldn’t come up with something less stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2025, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/234 "2025-12-04T03:04:51Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Too bad for him he couldn’t come up with something less stupid. Maybe he can claim he had them killed because he was in fear for his life because he thought they might have a gun. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2025, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/235 "2025-12-04T06:26:27Z")
The article is paywalled for me. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2025, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/236 "2025-12-04T06:31:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > he intends to tell Congress the two survivors were legitimate targets because by clinging to the floundering wreckage of their boat they were “attempting to continue their drug run”. “Anyone who runs is a narco-terrorist. Anyone who stands still is a _well-disciplined_ narco-terrorist”. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > He seems to think it literally means actual fog or smoke that you can’t see through, so it’s OK to blow up shipwrecked survivors. This conflict in which he found himself in the fog of war was one where a drone, flying way up out of sight, launched a single, precision-guided missile at a boat and destroyed it with that single hit. But somehow “fog of war” intervenes and requires a second strike on the burning debris. This is like trying to claim fog of war when stepping on an ant. The only reason you hit it again is because you’re trying to sound like Hans Gruber in Die Hard. ---
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2025, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/237 "2025-12-04T11:46:59Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > The career military is just naturally going to have a higher proportion of ‘you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet’ sort of people. Some commanders, like very possibly this admiral, callously just don’t give a shit about people they assume are criminals. Their view on minorities or Christianity may have nothing to do with it. They simply don’t care about the lives of people they assume have done wrong. And all of this is compounded by the fact that drone / missile strikes are impersonal. They’re clicking pixels on a screen. If the people involved had to board the boats, line up the crews, and then shoot them all one at a time, most would be far more likely to refuse the order, the illegality being horribly in their faces. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2025, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/238 "2025-12-04T11:55:43Z")
Y’all just wait until the time you can just tell an AI to make sure it eliminates all targets. But yeah… American troops _ **will** _ enforce the leader’s will just as well as any other. And they have zero experience in standing against the established government as “stabilizing force”. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2025, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/239 "2025-12-04T16:33:25Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > The article is paywalled for me. It is, unfortunately it was exclusive breaking news, so there wasn’t a valid alternative source. (I tried to find one yesterday, but WSJ seems to have had that nailed down.) There are now other sources reporting the same information, not paywalled. Here is one. > **[Admiral saw alleged drug boat strike survivors as legitimate targets, defense...](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/admiral-bradley-hegseth-drug-boat-strike-survivors-targets-congress-rcna247347)** > > Adm. Frank M. Bradley saw the two survivors of the first strike on an alleged drug boat as legitimate military targets based on the rules for the operation, a defense official said. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2025, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910/240 "2025-12-04T17:43:51Z")
It’s a long shot in terms of chances for success, but Articles of Impeachment [are being filed](https://www.axios.com/2025/12/03/pete-hegseth-impeachment-democrat-shri-thanedar) against Hegseth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-murder-on-the-high-seas-venezuelan-drug-boat/1022910.md?page=13)