# Mass Resignation of Turkish Generals **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785 "2011-07-29T23:29:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/1 "2011-07-29T23:29:36Z")
I found this story quite astonishing: > **[Turkish military command resigns en masse](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-30/turkey-military-command-resignations/2817130?section=world)** > > Turkey's entire military command has resigned in unison amid a reported bitter dispute with the government over the imprisonment of several generals jailed for plotting a coup. > [@](#): > > Turkey’s entire military command has resigned in unison amid a reported bitter dispute with the government over the imprisonment of several generals jailed for plotting a coup. > > The head of Turkey’s armed forces - as well as the chiefs of army, navy and air force - have all resigned en masse. The question for debate is - is this a bad sign for the stability of the country, indicating a military revolt is now likely, or a good sign as it indicates that the civilian government now has the whip-hand over the military? ---
**Author:** ![brittekland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@brittekland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brittekland)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/2 "2011-07-30T01:07:44Z")
I think it’s a good thing: aren’t the generals maintaining the balance with secularization and preventing Turkey from going full hardline Islamic state? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/3 "2011-07-30T02:06:12Z")
For Turkey, military revolt generally is set up to restore stability and maintain secularism, rather than destabilizing the nation. It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/4 "2011-07-30T02:21:05Z")
Resigning as a form of protest is always stupid. They should have worked to bring down the regime from the inside, instead of stepping aside and letting the government hire new generals who think the way they do Turkey’s been pulled back from being an Islamic state repeatedly. I would rather have the generals in charge and force their secularism on the Turks instead of the other way around ---
**Author:** ![brittekland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@brittekland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brittekland)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/5 "2011-07-30T03:10:29Z")
Maybe they are resigning to show who’s really in power; aren’t soldiers loyal to the incumbent generals? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/6 "2011-07-30T07:18:12Z")
How secular is the current civilian government? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/7 "2011-07-30T07:20:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How secular is the current civilian government? It is very secular (for the region), and the military historically has had a huge part in keeping it so. This is a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/8 "2011-07-30T12:43:33Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > It is very secular (for the region), and the military historically has had a huge part in keeping it so. > > This is a big deal. The AK party is a lot of things, but it’s certainly not secular. That said, I don’t think we have to worry about any coups. This sounds like some babies crying over spilt milk. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/9 "2011-07-30T12:52:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The AK party is a lot of things, but it’s certainly not secular. That’s the worrisome part, given the history of the Turkish military in maintaining what it views as proper government. ---
**Author:** ![BDoors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BDoors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BDoors)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/10 "2011-07-30T13:49:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The AK party is a lot of things, but it’s certainly not secular. > > That said, I don’t think we have to worry about any coups. > > This sounds like some babies crying over spilt milk. Yeah, my view is that this is the Turkish military, for decades a powerful force in public life, throwing its toys out of the pram over the fact that it now has to be more subservient to a democratically elected government. There were fears when the AK came in that they would be overtly Islamist, but it doesn’t seem to have turned out like that. Turkey has done pretty well under AK government. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/11 "2011-07-30T14:24:53Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Resigning as a form of protest is always stupid. They should have worked to bring down the regime from the inside, instead of stepping aside and letting the government hire new generals who think the way they do > > Turkey’s been pulled back from being an Islamic state repeatedly. I would rather have the generals in charge and force their secularism on the Turks instead of the other way around The idea that AK is going to turn Turkey into a Sunni Iran is simply Kemalist propaganda. The AK has shown no signs of becoming a hard-line Islamic State. The military is pissed off but in a Democracy, which Turkey is, the military is supposed to serve the government not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/12 "2011-07-30T14:33:46Z")
If it ends here, with the resignation of a bunch of uppity generals, I’d say it’s a good thing. Erdogan, Davutoğlu, et. al. have been good for Turkey and the Turks. (If it marks the beginning of a larger conflict, of course that’s a different story.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/13 "2011-07-30T14:37:38Z")
[insert your own Turkish-prison joke here] ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/14 "2011-07-30T14:50:41Z")
> [@BDoors](#): > > Yeah, my view is that this is the Turkish military, for decades a powerful force in public life, throwing its toys out of the pram over the fact that it now has to be more subservient to a democratically elected government. There were fears when the AK came in that they would be overtly Islamist, but it doesn’t seem to have turned out like that. Turkey has done pretty well under AK government. That’s my hope, but I simply do not know enough about the culture of the Turkish military to know whether the mass resignation really means that the generals are giving up power - or preparing trouble behind the scenes. I am far more concerned about the possibility of unrest than I am about the “Islamicization” by the civilian gov’t. It is concerning that the civilian gov’t has held a large number of generals without trial for some years, and it is concerning that the upper ranks of the military are showing concerted solidarity in protest over this. Which way will the army jump now? I hope that (1) the civilian gov’t appoints new generals who are accepted by the army, and (2) proceeds to fair and open trials of the military guys it has prisoner. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/15 "2011-07-30T15:06:27Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I found this story quite astonishing: > > [Turkish military command resigns en masse - ABC News](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-30/turkey-military-command-resignations/2817130?section=world) > > The question for debate is - is this a bad sign for the stability of the country, indicating a military revolt is now likely, or a good sign as it indicates that the civilian government now has the whip-hand over the military? If it is anything, it’s another increment toward the civilian government fully controlling the military. In that respect it is a good thing for Turkey. The downside is the how of obtaining this dominance. The Ergenekon trials and the AK party interfering with promotions is the generals’ reasons for resigning. Neither are positive, and may hint at corruption. > [@brittekland](#): > > I think it’s a good thing: aren’t the generals maintaining the balance with secularization and preventing Turkey from going full hardline Islamic state? “Full hardline Islamic state” is nothing, to worry about. No reasonable follower of Turkish politics could see that as a possibility. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Resigning as a form of protest is always stupid. They should have worked to bring down the regime from the inside, instead of stepping aside and letting the government hire new generals who think the way they do > > Turkey’s been pulled back from being an Islamic state repeatedly. I would rather have the generals in charge and force their secularism on the Turks instead of the other way around Why should they bring down a democratically elected government? When was Turkey demonstratively pulled back from an Islamic state by military intervention? > [@Miller](#): > > How secular is the current civilian government? They’re equivalent to Republicans: Big business and got their mind on your morals. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/16 "2011-07-30T15:30:45Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > They’re equivalent to Republicans: Big business and got their mind on your morals. Is there any equivalent to the Democrats? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/17 "2011-07-30T15:39:28Z")
A good [background review from Reuter’s](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/10/us-turkey-elections-democracy-idUSTRE75936Q20110610) last month before their elections. > [@](#): > > With the economy notching up impressive growth rates, investors have been sanguine about Turkey’s politics so long as there is no return to the cycle of coups and economic crises that plagued the country in the latter half of the 20th century. > > The chances of another coup – there have been three since 1960 while a fourth government was forced to resign in 1997 – appear remote given that AK has clipped the army’s powers. … > > … Scaremongering suggesting the AK has some hidden Islamist agenda is gaining less traction these days. > > “If we did have a hidden agenda this would be the best kept secret on earth because people have seen us in action for the past nine years,” Egemen Bagis, Turkey’s minister for European affairs, told Reuters at a marina built for the new rich on the outskirts of Istanbul. > > In disarray since AK first swept traditional parties from power in 2002, the secularist Republican People’s Party (CHP) opposition has changed tactics. It talks less of an Islamist takeover and more on the dangers of Erdogan subverting democracy by gaining control of all levers of the state. > > The CHP’s new leader Kemal Kilicdaroglu accuses Erdogan of intolerance and of leading a “wiretapping government” to keep political rivals in check, and has criticized AK for a widening wealth gap despite years of record growth and low inflation. … > > … in just nine years under the AK party, religious Turks who were the underdogs of society under previous secular governments have come into their own across the country and displaced the secular, Westernized elite from power. > > Generals, the self-proclaimed guardians of secularism, are now confined to barracks; the wives of Erdogan and President Abdullah Gul assertively wear headscarves; government receptions where raki and whiskey are not served no longer make headlines. > > Some Turks say “neighborhood pressure” – showing piety in dress or fasting during Ramadan – gets you government jobs and contracts. Some say the call to prayer from mosques is louder under AK and surveys show more women wear headscarves. > > The government has made alcoholic drinks more expensive while trying to introduce tougher laws on sale and consumption, particularly to discourage young drinkers. > > Education, in a country of 75 million with an average age of 28, is a big issue. Teachers complain that more pious colleagues are being favored for jobs at state schools. … > > … Accusations that the police is filled with supporters of an Islamist movement led by Fethullah Gulen, a Muslim preacher who re-based to Pennsylvania for fear of a crackdown at home in the late 1990s, appear particularly sensitive. > > Three months ago a well-known journalist, Ahmet Sik, was put in detention for writing a book that repeated the allegations. Police sought to destroy copies of the unpublished book, but Turks can still find it through the Internet. > > Tens of thousands protested in Istanbul in May against Internet censorship and plans for a new filtering system, due to be introduced on August 22, under which users must sign up for one of four filters – domestic, family, children and standard. > > Turkey has previously banned access to various websites, including YouTube for more than two years, under court orders imposed for infringing decency laws. … He [won the election](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-12/early-election-results-from-turkey-show-erdogan-likely-to-win-third-term.html), but not with the supermajority he needed to make the constitutional changes he wants without consent of the opposition. These resignations must be viewed in that context. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/18 "2011-07-30T15:55:56Z")
I can’t be the only one who’s reminded of the “Auspicious Incident” back in 1826, right? The Turkish military brass gets too big for their britches, and after a power struggle are finally put in place by the country’s leader… Only this time around, we’ve got Kosaner and his clique instead of the Janissaries, and Erdogan instead of Mahmud II. (Granted, the similarities might end right there.) ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/19 "2011-07-30T16:00:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is there any equivalent to the Democrats? I can’t say because I did not pay much attention before 2002-03. I can infer by making guesses about the parties voted for by people that would side with democrats here. The two most prominent parties are the original Kemalist party - CHP and the Kurdish party - BDP (reformation of DTP). Both are in disarray, field crap leaders and seem generally ineffective. I didn’t follow it to resolution, but I think both parties are playing some symbolic gesture game over the swearing in of parliament. They are protesting the jailing and expulsion of various members of their party. Generally, they are reduced to symbolic gestures because the electorate is just not behind them. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785/20 "2011-07-31T03:46:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The idea that AK is going to turn Turkey into a Sunni Iran is simply Kemalist propaganda. > > The AK has shown no signs of becoming a hard-line Islamic State. > > The military is pissed off but in a Democracy, which Turkey is, the military is supposed to serve the government not the other way around. All the more reason to allow the military to be able to reign in the government when it gets too Islamic. Its worked so far, let them keep doing it. Don’t you think the fact that the state hasn’t gotten hard-line Islamic as you say shows that they are simply biding their time and consolidating their power? And if you think that sounds paranoid, look at their history, its happened many times before > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Why should they bring down a democratically elected government? When was Turkey demonstratively pulled back from an Islamic state by military intervention? Democracy ain’t everything. That part of the world isn’t ready for it. And yes, I use my personal ethnocentric viewpoint as judgement on that. Popularly elected governments there would be disasterous for the West. And quibble if you want at the “Islamist” state label, and I’m sure you will, but Turkey’s military has executed coups in 1960, 1971, 1980, and 1997. It has removed an overly Islamic prime minister and executed another. The military’s stated goals are secular and they’ve constantly used a 1961 law to enforce it. I hope they continue to do the same as we do not need another theocracy in that part of the world, or any part really [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-resignation-of-turkish-generals/590785.md?page=2)