# Mass shootings at mosques in New Zealand **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 15, 2019, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169 "2019-03-15T04:15:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/261 "2019-03-19T18:23:23Z")
If your understanding of free speech hasn’t evolved since the advent of the internet then you are way behind the curve. If you’re applying concepts like “collision with error” to things like white supremacy, you’re probably whiter than an albino clone of Benedict Cumberbatch freezing to death in a snowstorm. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/262 "2019-03-19T18:41:06Z")
If you think the validity of Mill’s words is negated somehow by the medium of communication of ideas in the 21st century, you need to demonstrate why. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/263 "2019-03-19T18:52:00Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > (FYI, I never had a problem with welcoming liberal/secular Muslims). This is a lie. To take just one example, you have proposed [“thought experiments”](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=798458) about geographically segregating **all** Muslims in countries where some unspecified proportion of Muslims are radical-Islamist extremists committing terror attacks: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Presumably, if every Muslim in France attacked non-Muslim innocents at some point (not all at once, but biding their time until they had a good opportunity), that’s a no-brainer. Right? Or do we stand firm on religious freedom and civil liberties (opposing “thought crime”) even then? > > Assuming that would indeed be high enough for drastic measures to be taken, what if it’s “only” a third of Muslims? Let’s say the other two-thirds were absolutely horrified by what that one-third was doing–not only for moral reasons but because they would obviously feel that the minority was ruining the majority’s standing in the society. I would submit that this is still well above the threshold where it’s an untenable situation. In a country of 64 million, 10% of whom are Muslims, how can you live with two million people who are going to try to kill you, even if the other four million are totally good eggs? > > So then what’s the threshold? […] I am not sure, when anyone can make a vehicle into an incredibly deadly weapon (even without the explosives), that we’re too far away from it. If you would seriously consider kicking two-thirds of a particular religious minority out of a country, even though they’re “totally good eggs”, just because of the actions of their co-religionists, then you definitely have a “problem” with “welcoming” them. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/264 "2019-03-19T18:54:04Z")
Mom, the mayo’s gone moldy! ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/265 "2019-03-19T19:02:26Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > If your understanding of free speech hasn’t evolved since the advent of the internet then you are way behind the curve. If you’re applying concepts like “collision with error” to things like white supremacy, you’re probably whiter than an albino clone of Benedict Cumberbatch freezing to death in a snowstorm. So you can’t defend your attack on free speech without being racist. Says it all, really. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/266 "2019-03-19T19:18:11Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > So you can’t defend your attack on free speech without being racist. > > Says it all, really. You want a nuanced take from me on free speech? Step 1: Don’t have it in a pit thread about a mass shooting brought on by white supremacist bullshit. Step 2: Don’t have it involve one of the board’s loudest anti-muslim bigots. Hell, look straight up. I did, in fact, offer a nuanced take to **Novelty Bobble**. Because I don’t recall him being an islamophobic shitbag. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/267 "2019-03-19T19:56:58Z")
All the world’s most popular religious texts contain enormous amounts of hate speech. This hate speech has been proven to cause countless acts of violence over thousands of years, and continues today. Should they be banned? If not, why not. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/268 "2019-03-19T20:03:02Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > You want a nuanced take from me on free speech? > > Step 1: Don’t have it in a pit thread about a mass shooting brought on by white supremacist bullshit. > Step 2: Don’t have it involve one of the board’s loudest anti-muslim bigots. > > Hell, look straight up. I did, in fact, offer a nuanced take to **Novelty Bobble**. Because I don’t recall him being an islamophobic shitbag. Given that Holodomor Denial and Armenian Genocide Denial aren’t banned, these attacks on free speech aren’t aimed at reducing hatred, but are instead simple political game-playing. The fact you, a racist, and **MrDibble** , a misogynist, both support those bans supports that conclusion and says a lot about what kind of person is in favor of banning denialism. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/269 "2019-03-19T20:11:12Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > All the world’s most popular religious texts contain enormous amounts of hate speech. This hate speech has been proven to cause countless acts of violence over thousands of years, and continues today. > > Should they be banned? If not, why not. Because ideologies combined with funny hats or robes and mystical beliefs are a “protected class.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/270 "2019-03-19T20:37:21Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Given that Holodomor Denial and Armenian Genocide Denial aren’t banned, these attacks on free speech aren’t aimed at reducing hatred, but are instead simple political game-playing. > > The fact you, a racist, and **MrDibble** , a misogynist, both support those bans supports that conclusion and says a lot about what kind of person is in favor of banning denialism. As it turns out, I’m not a racist nor a misogynist [and you are talking shit.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jan/23/armenian-genocide-denial-ban-france) when the context is about European laws. I would even doubt your items against those posters as I have not seen a preponderance or recent examples of what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/271 "2019-03-19T20:47:49Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And that is what has happened here: I can’t criticize Australia barring Milo from entry based on his ideology and public statements, while supporting a ban on entry to the U.S. by conservative Muslims (FYI, I never had a problem with welcoming liberal/secular Muslims). So if I have to oppose both or support both, I choose opposition to both bans even if it is painful to do so. If I understand you correctly, you’re of the opinion that we must allow free speech because regulating any kind of speech in any way is inherently bad, tantamount to criminalizing thoughts and ideas. Why, then, do you support barring conservative Muslims? On what grounds do you support laws that bar them? Is it because you are inherently predisposed to prohibiting people based on their cultural background or religious practices without knowing anything about them? Or is it because you don’t like what they’ve said they believed, or what you think they’ve said they believe? Isn’t using the law to sanction thoughts and ideas wrong? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/272 "2019-03-19T21:00:24Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > **MrDibble** , a misogynist Oh, \*this \*should be good… I’m a _what_, now? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/273 "2019-03-19T21:37:55Z")
> [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](#): > > Oh puh-leeze… you’re dancing on the graves of 50 dead countrymen so that you can portray yourself as a victim too. If that mass-shooting didn’t happen none of your woe-is-me-too rhetoric would have a voice right now. I can’t stop you lying to yourself but I’m not buying it. > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > **I have no intention of trying to change Slacker.** I have every intention of shining a light on his bigotry. \ blah blah blah [Moderating] Inserting editorial comments, like “blah blah blah,” into a quote box when quoting another poster is a violation of the board rules. Please avoid doing this in the future. No warning issued. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/274 "2019-03-19T22:44:58Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > FYI, Canada repealed its blasphemy law last year and no one had been prosecuted under it for 90 years. Additional FYI, New Zealand (unanimously) repealed it’s blasphemy law two weeks ago. There had been a single (unsuccessful) attempt made at prosecution under it 97 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2019, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/275 "2019-03-20T00:22:21Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > If I understand you correctly, you’re of the opinion that we must allow free speech because regulating any kind of speech in any way is inherently bad, tantamount to criminalizing thoughts and ideas. Why, then, do you support barring conservative Muslims? 😕 Uhhh…it seems like you didn’t really understand the post of mine that you quoted right above these words? Maybe try going back and rereading it. > [@Kimstu](#): > > If you would seriously consider kicking two-thirds of a particular religious minority out of a country, even though they’re “totally good eggs”, just because of the actions of their co-religionists, then you definitely have a “problem” with “welcoming” them. You have actually reinforced my point. If I thought all Muslims were bad, how could you quote me as saying the majority of them might well be “totally good eggs”? :dubious: The only point you have succeeded in scoring here is that I should have added the caveat “assuming we could tell who is who”. Okay, fine. Mea culpa. > [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > All the world’s most popular religious texts contain enormous amounts of hate speech. This hate speech has been proven to cause countless acts of violence over thousands of years, and continues today… Indeed. And I’d include among that violence some of the atrocities carried out by Israel against Palestinians. The Likud coalition includes some ultra-Orthodox parties who you just know have to take Bible verses like these (in Deut. 20) pretty seriously. Keep in mind that “Canaanites” are generally understood to be the same thing as Palestinian Arabs: > [@](#): > > …16However, in the cities of the nations that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not leave alive anything that breathes. 17You must completely destroy them— the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites— as the LORD your God has commanded you, 18so that they cannot teach you to do all the detestable things they do for their gods and cause you to sin against the LORD your God.… > [@octopus](#): > > Because ideologies combined with funny hats or robes and mystical beliefs are a “protected class.” Bingo. And it’s really frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2019, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/276 "2019-03-20T02:34:42Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > 😕 Uhhh…it seems like you didn’t really understand the post of mine that you quoted right above these words? Maybe try going back and rereading it. I have no idea what you’re talking about here. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2019, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/277 "2019-03-20T06:30:47Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I have no idea what you’re talking about here. You think your post makes sense with what you quoted? ETA: You understand what “opposition to both bans” means? If so, why did you ask me why I support one of the bans? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2019, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/278 "2019-03-20T08:18:16Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > What is the situation in Spain regarding such claims? There isn’t a specific law regarding genocide denial but it can be prosecuted against under several other existing laws. Depending on the specific situation and IANAL, that would mainly be laws against “inciting violence” (public speech) or worker-protection laws (hostile situation at work). It tends to be other murders that get denied, though, since we do have our own history of violence and don’t need to borrow the neighbors’ (people murdered by ETA? Nah, they just had an accident with a 9mm parabellum bullet… amazing how those things do tend to spontaneously fly around…). While there aren’t many Jews in Spain, there happens to be people who came in during WWII as refugees, some of which were Jews; one of my college teachers was one such refugee. Denying the Holocaust is tantamount to saying they, or their parents who shipped them to an unknown land that wasn’t recovered from its recent civil war, were “just imagining things”. No, they weren’t… ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2019, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/279 "2019-03-20T08:37:03Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Given that Holodomor Denial and Armenian Genocide Denial aren’t banned, these attacks on free speech aren’t aimed at reducing hatred, but are instead simple political game-playing. I’m not sure how to parse this. Maybe wanna rephrase this one? Because the way you phrased it is not a good look. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2019, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/280 "2019-03-20T09:57:28Z")
Here’s an excellent allegory for every post **SlackerInc** has made in this thread. > **[Guy wearing MAGA hat disrupts Toronto vigil for mosque attack victims](https://www.blogto.com/city/2019/03/maga-hat-york-vigil/)** > > A sombre vigil at York University for the victims of last week's deadly New Zealand mosque attack erupted into chaos Monday afternoon when one pers... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169.md?page=15)