# Mass shootings at mosques in New Zealand **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 15, 2019, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169 "2019-03-15T04:15:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/81 "2019-03-16T09:40:36Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Where is your moral compass? There **is** an Us vs. Them > > US = all peaceful people. > Them = those that deny the Social Contract. > > My tolerance does not extend to those who advocate dehumanization and violence towards minorities. Fullstop. I barely can tolerate those who defend these people. I don’t like those that advocate dehumanization and violence, and I don’t feel the need to constrain that to a specific group of people. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/82 "2019-03-16T09:40:59Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > It’s very simple, if you use this atrocity to increase the Us Vs. Them rhetoric you are carrying out his plans to create conflict as he explicitly stated. > When a terrorist tells you he is going to do something so that the reaction he expects from you will fulfill his agenda, most non-stupid people would refuse to play along. No, that’s standard right wing victim-blaming rhetoric. What we are \*supposed \*to do is what you say; sit by passively until we get carted off to the death camps, because nobody bothered to stand up to the right until too late. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/83 "2019-03-16T10:00:44Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > I don’t like those that advocate dehumanization and violence, and I don’t feel the need to constrain that to a specific group of people. “You’re intolerant because you can’t tolerate the intolerant.” Fuck off! Preaching alarmist, conspiratorial violence isn’t a fucking game or philosophical exercise. Such people need to be monitored, controlled, demonetized, and restricted **like we do with all other violent extremists**. I don’t need to accept targeted acts of, live-streamed, mass slaughterings as just the burden of [del]allowing[/del] enabling profitable, violent speech. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/84 "2019-03-16T11:00:47Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You want me to ignore someone who has declared that they “welcome immigrants from virtually any other part of the world, as long as they are not Muslim.” You want me to pretend that he didn’t say that, lest the “terrorists win?” I think what terrorists of all kinds want us to do is to have the discussions on _their_ terms. They _want_ to polarise and divide and avoiding doing that is the part that is completely in our control. The above statement you quoted is bigoted bullshit. Acknowledging it as such and calling it out is the right thing to do. Pointedly criticising those that spew such stuff is the right thing to do. What is far more problematic and what delights the extremists is when we begin hollow out the middle ground of discussion and make it a no-go area. There is a legitimate, non-bigoted, case to be made regarding controlled immigration. The danger (which is already manifesting itself I think) is that those even beginning to have that discussion get labelled as far-right sympathisers and as such their opinion can be safely ignored. I’m not suggesting that you are doing this, neither explicitly nor implicitly, but handing that middle ground to bigots and extremists is very dangerous indeed and we should all be careful not to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/85 "2019-03-16T11:08:07Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > What is far more problematic and what delights the extremists is when we begin hollow out the middle ground of discussion and make it a no-go area. > There is a legitimate, non-bigoted, case to be made regarding controlled immigration. The danger (which is already manifesting itself I think) is that those even beginning to have that discussion get labelled as far-right sympathisers and as such their opinion can be safely ignored. > > I’m not suggesting that you are doing this, neither explicitly nor implicitly, but handing that middle ground to bigots and extremists is very dangerous indeed and we should all be careful not to do so. That is true for some people ostensibly near the “middle” but on an individual basis. If the quote in question had come from someone whose other views were not widely known, it could be the basis for a discussion, but since we already know how the conversation will go, it comes across as needlessly inflammatory and borderline trolling since not only do we know the conversation would be useless, he _knows_ the conversation would be useless and so the easiest conclusion is that he is posting this just get a rise out of the rest of the Dopers. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/86 "2019-03-16T12:59:22Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And you seem to be missing that my point was to say “this is a terrible tragedy, first and foremost; secondarily, it undercuts my thesis and I am acknowledging that.” I thought you might be glad I didn’t just go dark after this shooting, and selectively pipe up when shootings fit my narrative. “I am acknowledging that this is a counterexample to my thesis, but hardly sufficient to undermine my thesis: the real problem is still Muslims” was what I drew from your post. If I was wrong in any of that, please feel free to correct me. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/87 "2019-03-16T13:09:03Z")
> [@Rush Limbaugh](#): > > There’s an ongoing theory that the shooter himself may in fact be a leftist who writes the manifesto and then goes out and performs the deed purposely to smear his political enemies. Because [of course](https://twitter.com/mmfa/status/1106607798345961474) he’d say something like that. Rush Limbaugh [still gets aired on the Armed Forces Network](http://www.afneurope.net/AFN-360/). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/88 "2019-03-16T13:23:47Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > It’s very simple, if you use this atrocity to increase the Us Vs. Them rhetoric you are carrying out his plans to create conflict as he explicitly stated. And if there’s one thing you can trust a murderous asshole to do–a murderous asshole who’s steeped himself in the filthiest corners of 4chan and reddit–it’s to play it with you straight, right? Because there’s no way he’d try to fuck with you. Dude. Paying his self-aggrandizing claims **any fucking mind at all** is carrying out his plans. When you talk about his tune, you’re dancing to it. Ignore his psychopathic psychobabble. Do the right thing, which is to condemn and marginalize and disempower the xenophobes and racists and white supremacists who make space for his brand of mass murder. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/89 "2019-03-16T13:46:28Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > No, it’s not a coincidence, his stated goal was to sow division and inflame Left Vs. Right division, and seems that a lot of people here are helping the bastard with the plan. > > Well done. :smack: A man who murdered a bunch of people finds inspiration from the same place as the president of the United States’ supporters, and discussing that fact is where the problem lies in your mind? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/90 "2019-03-16T14:12:11Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …lets not pretend that holding people who hold beliefs like this: > > to account is in any way complicit with with the stated goal of this terrorist. This isn’t about “left vs right.” SlackerInc insists he is “on the left.” I’ll take him at his word. SlackerInc also doesn’t welcome Muslim’s to his country. I’ll take him at his word about that as well. People who hold view like that shouldn’t be given a platform. And they don’t need your defense. Thanks for posting that link. Now I shall regard SlakerInc as nothing more than the bigoted piece of shit that he is. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/91 "2019-03-16T14:55:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Ignore his psychopathic psychobabble. Do the right thing, which is to condemn and marginalize and disempower the xenophobes and racists and white supremacists who make space for his brand of mass murder. …And, obviously (so obvious I forgot to say it at first), the right thing to do is to marginalize the forces, whether lobbyists or propagandists or manufacturers, that make these big massacres and dozens of daily low-key murders possible. End the gun hegemony in our political system. Now I know you’re getting ready to freak the fuck out, Ale, and start telling me about how my inability to visually distinguish between an AR-15 with a bump stock and an AR-15 without a bump stock makes my opinion on gun issues irrelevant. BUT THAT’S JUST WHAT THIS GUY WANTS YOU TO DO!!!1!! Don’t argue. Don’t deepen the divisions. Come together, and let’s work to end gun violence. ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/92 "2019-03-16T15:02:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And if there’s one thing you can trust a murderous asshole to do–a murderous asshole who’s steeped himself in the filthiest corners of 4chan and reddit–it’s to play it with you straight, right? Because there’s no way he’d try to fuck with you. > > Dude. Paying his self-aggrandizing claims **any fucking mind at all** is carrying out his plans. When you talk about his tune, you’re dancing to it. > > Ignore his psychopathic psychobabble. Do the right thing, which is to condemn and marginalize and disempower the xenophobes and racists and white supremacists who make space for his brand of mass murder. No kidding he wasn’t playing it straight. That’s why he lavished praise on Candace Owens even though his racist self didn’t like her. Everything around her is a ball of division and chaos. Of course hitting checkpoints like that helped a goal of his. I’ll defer to what experts would have to say but I’m pretty sure most of them would also see this. 1. He was a hateful bigoted psychopathic murderer. 2. He wanted to exacerbate discord and balkanization in society. Those two items aren’t at all mutually exclusive. It seems like people are arguing as though they are. Very sad. Your last paragraph comes down to who we label as such and there is a lot of ambiguous area where we need to careful, not necessarily applicable in this case. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/93 "2019-03-16T15:44:48Z")
Can I imagine shoving the guy out of an airplane (with a parachute) so that he lands, oh, about 20 yards from the Kaaba? With a sign pinned to him. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/94 "2019-03-16T16:00:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I have echoed Sam Harris in pointing out in the past that these kinds of attacks are almost always inflicted by, not against, Muslims. This is a massive counterexample, and I just wanted to state for the record that I see and recognize that. Classy as always. :dubious: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > And you seem to be missing that my point was to say “this is a terrible tragedy, first and foremost; secondarily, it undercuts my thesis and I am acknowledging that.” I thought you might be glad I didn’t just go dark after this shooting, and selectively pipe up when shootings fit my narrative. I think most here would prefer you didn’t “pipe up” at all. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/95 "2019-03-16T16:21:57Z")
Can we stop pretending this shit is just an accident now? [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2018/09/04/that-was-no-white-power-hand-signal-at-the-kavanaugh-hearing-zina-bashs-husband-says/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2018/09/04/that-was-no-white-power-hand-signal-at-the-kavanaugh-hearing-zina-bashs-husband-says/) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/96 "2019-03-16T16:37:34Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Can we stop pretending this shit is just an accident now? [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2018/09/04/that-was-no-white-power-hand-signal-at-the-kavanaugh-hearing-zina-bashs-husband-says/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2018/09/04/that-was-no-white-power-hand-signal-at-the-kavanaugh-hearing-zina-bashs-husband-says/) Did you read the article? > [@](#): > > The idea that the hand sign is a secret symbol for white power owes its mainstream spread to a viral troll campaign aimed at making liberals and the media look gullible. In February 2017, 4chan’s /pol/ board discussed ongoing tactics to try to get the idea to go viral. “To any who haven’t seen the original thread, our goal is to convince people on twitter that the ‘ok’ hand sign has been co-opted by neo-nazis,” the original poster of the thread wrote. > > As BuzzFeed has reported, /pol/ was gleeful when the okay hand sign started to get mainstream traction. As the campaign spread, however, the symbol was simultaneously adopted by the alt-right — an umbrella term for those on the far right who embrace white nationalist views — and the pro-Trump Internet, both of whom seem to primarily use the gesture to “trigger” liberals who believed the hand sign was a decoder ring to detect secret Nazis. It’s not really a “White Power” symbol, just a [troll symbol](https://www.adl.org/blog/how-the-ok-symbol-became-a-popular-trolling-gesture). I’m going with the ADL, they seem a little more reliable than some alt-righties from 4chan. If she meant it as such, she’s completely retarded. (She’s not even white) (I’m soooo tired of this stupid meme. Congratulations. You’ve done exactly what a bunch of basement dwelling losers wanted you to do. Thanks for making the left look like a bunch of complete fucking morons) ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/97 "2019-03-16T17:16:49Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Did you read the article? > > It’s not really a “White Power” symbol, just a [troll symbol](https://www.adl.org/blog/how-the-ok-symbol-became-a-popular-trolling-gesture). > > I’m going with the ADL, they seem a little more reliable than some alt-righties from 4chan. > > If she meant it as such, she’s completely retarded. (She’s not even white) > > (I’m soooo tired of this stupid meme. Congratulations. You’ve done exactly what a bunch of basement dwelling losers wanted you to do. Thanks for making the left look like a bunch of complete fucking morons) I don’t give two shits whether it is a white power signal or a trolling signal of solidarity amongst white supremicists. It’s a distinction without a difference and our fucking White House shouldn’t be encouraging it. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/98 "2019-03-16T18:09:24Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Did you read the article? > > It’s not really a “White Power” symbol, just a [troll symbol](https://www.adl.org/blog/how-the-ok-symbol-became-a-popular-trolling-gesture). > > I’m going with the ADL, they seem a little more reliable than some alt-righties from 4chan. > > If she meant it as such, she’s completely retarded. (She’s not even white) > (I’m soooo tired of this stupid meme. Congratulations. You’ve done exactly what a bunch of basement dwelling losers wanted you to do. Thanks for making the left look like a bunch of complete fucking morons) It may have started as a troll, but it has since been coopted by the right. The same way Pepe the Frog started out as a troll but has become a right wing symbol. * * * ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/99 "2019-03-16T18:12:17Z")
People wearing Bernie Sanders gear verbally attacked Chelsea Clinton at a vigil for the dead in New Zealand for being responsible for the New Zealand shooting. > **[NYU students confront Chelsea Clinton, say she ‘stoked’ hatred behind New...](https://nypost.com/2019/03/16/nyu-students-confront-chelsea-clinton-say-she-stoked-hatred-behind-new-zealand-shootings/)** > > A student cornered Chelsea Clinton at an NYU vigil for the New Zealand massacre victims and blamed her for inciting murderous anti-Muslim hatred — prompting fellow first-family member Donald Trump … ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169/100 "2019-03-16T18:53:49Z")
CHELSEA CLINTON??? WTF? This world is going crazy. > [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > It may have started as a troll, but it has since been coopted by the right. The same way Pepe the Frog started out as a troll but has become a right wing symbol. > > * * * Not everybody knows that though. If someone saw say, my father make that sign, it would be a pretty safe bet he wasn’t making a WP gesture. Like I said, if you read the article, it’s more of a “I’m going to flash this to make people think I support WP” or actual alt-righties who just like to piss people off. People would probably be a lot better off ignoring 4chan. Then perhaps we wouldn’t be seeing things like free bleeding and the like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-shootings-at-mosques-in-new-zealand/831169.md?page=6)