# Mass-transit referendum in Hillsborough County (Tampa), Florida **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 21, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942 "2010-08-21T02:28:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/21 "2010-08-23T10:41:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Ermm . . . guys . . . “suburbia” != “The American Dream.” Your idealism is touching. The American Dream is whatever the biggest bloc of money says it is. We’re too well organized an economy to allow people real choices. > [@](#): > > I can understand practical objections to rail transit, it costs too much, not enough people will ride it, etc., all debatable but all sound arguments. But objection on what appears to be **ideological** grounds, that I do not understand. Yet there seems to be a **lot** of opposition on ideological grounds – see [Randal O’Toole.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randal_O%27Toole) Apparently all Libertarians and libertarian-leaning conservatives seem to feel obliged to oppose rail transit and [transit-oriented development](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit-oriented_development) and [New Urbanism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_urbanism) in general, as somehow un-American – as if it were all some kind of encroachment on Liberty, or as if by living in your own detached tract house with a back yard you are doing something to preserve America’s Pioneer Spirit. Well, it isn’t and you ain’t. Libertarians know that when people are suburbanized, they see themselves as consumers first and citizens second. That they regard as a healthy force against Big Government, which is what results when people bond in communities and start thinking about the common good and social (pshaw!) responsibility. > [@](#): > > And it’s not as if anyone were talking about bulldozing suburbia anyway. It will still be there after the light rail lines are built, won’t it? But there’s no good reason why we need any **more** of it than we have now. Yes, there is. Housing starts are a leading economic indicator and thus a good in themselves, because they raise the stock market regardless of whether the homes will ever sell. There’s no talk of paying the piper or junky mortgage paper or collapsing investment banks. There’s only the current fiscal quarter. _That_ is as close as you’ll come to the American Dream. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/22 "2010-08-23T11:26:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > … and then west to Tallahassee and Pensacola. Why? Would that achieve anything other than dragging the system down financially? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/23 "2010-08-23T13:28:23Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > … and then west to Tallahassee and Pensacola. > > Why? Would that achieve anything other than dragging the system down financially? See post #18. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/24 "2010-08-23T13:29:54Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > This is just one of those things that will benefit the nation as a whole much more than it will the great run of individuals, and they’re going to be very easily manipulated to oppose it. Manipulated by whom? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/25 "2010-08-23T13:45:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@cckerberos](#): > > > > Why? Would that achieve anything other than dragging the system down financially? > > See post #18. You know that’s an utterly inadequate answer. HIgh-fives from HSR boosters is no support. You’ve been called on similar not-actually-useful-cites before. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/26 "2010-08-23T14:10:44Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > … and then west to Tallahassee and Pensacola. > > Why? Would that achieve anything other than dragging the system down financially? Actually, extending it to Tallahassee means it will benefit state legislators. Assuming the system isn’t going to be profitable, which it probably isn’t, it can’t hurt to have a few dozen fans in the state house. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/27 "2010-08-23T15:02:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@cckerberos](#): > > > > Why? Would that achieve anything other than dragging the system down financially? > > See post #18. I was asking about that FL extension specifically, but fine. I live in country with a broad HSR network and like HSR. I want the US to have HSR. I’m an easy sell… but that proposed national HSR network has to be one of the worst ideas I’ve ever heard put forth seriously. Seattle to Boise HSR? Denver to Kansas City HSR? I don’t demand that HSR be profitable (although it can be), but it shouldn’t be a money pit either. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/28 "2010-08-23T15:05:16Z")
Er… what’s wrong with those routes? They’re major cities, and I assume high speed rail can cover those distances at much lower cost than airlines. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/29 "2010-08-23T15:14:50Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > See post #18. > > I was asking about that FL extension specifically, but fine. > > I live in country with a broad HSR network and like HSR. I want the US to have HSR. I’m an easy sell… but that proposed national HSR network has to be one of the worst ideas I’ve ever heard put forth seriously. Seattle to Boise HSR? Denver to Kansas City HSR? I don’t demand that HSR be profitable (although it can be), but it shouldn’t be a money pit either. Well, that’s just a system as “proposed” by an advocacy group. [Here’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_the_United_States#Strategic_plan) the vision in the strategic plan formulated by the Federal Railroad Administration in response to the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. You’ll see that from Orlando to Jacksonville, and Jacksonville to Pensacola, is “Other Passenger Rail Routes,” i.e., non-HSR. I just figure, **eventually** that will be upgraded to HSR. There are always a lot of drivers on I-10 along that route, and it’s the way to Mobile and New Orleans. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/30 "2010-08-23T15:31:08Z")
> [@](#): > > As for the long-haul routes: no one much likes flying today, but as long as their time is valuable, they’ll have to put up with it and they will. The airline lobbyists take every advantage of that. All the anti-rail people have to mention is time and the debate is already half over. There are a lot of routes where high-speed rail would be quicker than flying. Sure, the train itself isn’t as fast as a plane, but I’ve been on plenty of flights where we spent more time taxiing and waiting for a takeoff time than in the air. Plus, of course, rail stations will tend to be more conveniently located than airports. And in the “personal benefit” column, coach on any train I’ve been on has been more comfortable than coach on any plane I’ve been on. > [@](#): > > Er… what’s wrong with those routes? They’re major cities… Boise is only a major city in that it’s the biggest city in Idaho, a state not noted for being urban. But it’d only just barely make it onto a list of the top 100 cities in the country. Now, Seattle-Portland-San Francisco-Los Angeles, that’d make a lot more sense. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/31 "2010-08-23T15:51:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Boise is only a major city in that it’s the biggest city in Idaho, a state not noted for being urban. But it’d only just barely make it onto a list of the top 100 cities in the country. Now, Seattle-Portland-San Francisco-Los Angeles, that’d make a lot more sense. OK, but if there’s going to be a HSR line from Salt Lake City to Seattle, no reason it shouldn’t stop at Boise. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/32 "2010-08-23T16:06:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Er… what’s wrong with those routes? They’re major cities, and I assume high speed rail can cover those distances at much lower cost than airlines. I chose them because they’re very long routes with more or less nothing along the way. In the case of Denver-Kansas City, the route would be the longest HSR route in the world, the longest by far between stations. HSR is slower than flying but usually makes up for that fact because it’s not _that_ much slower when all the other time sinks involved in flying are taken into account. With a route as long as Denver-Kansas City that would no longer be true, which would almost certainly cut down on ridership and increase the fare. Also the maintenance for such a long route would be immense. I just skimmed [this proposal](http://www.america2050.org/pdf/Where-HSR-Works-Best.pdf) (PDF) which includes what I think are much more reasonable suggestions for HSR links in the US based on economic analysis. It proposes Boston-DC, Los Angeles-San Francisco, and Chicago-Minneapolis-Detroit-St. Louis as “phase 1” links for HSR. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/33 "2010-08-23T16:09:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > OK, but if there’s going to be a HSR line from Salt Lake City to Seattle, no reason it shouldn’t stop at Boise. I guess, but why would there be a Salt Lake City to Seattle HSR line? That’s 700 miles! It’d be faster and cheaper to fly. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/34 "2010-08-23T16:40:30Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > OK, but if there’s going to be a HSR line from Salt Lake City to Seattle, no reason it shouldn’t stop at Boise. > > I guess, but why would there be a Salt Lake City to Seattle HSR line? That’s 700 miles! It’d be faster and cheaper to fly. Well, that’s a very long-term, last-stage addition. Every plan puts first priority on the densest urban corridors. Point being, HSR to Boise is always an afterthought. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/35 "2010-08-23T16:43:32Z")
I guess that depends on whose definition of HSR we’re talking about. At 225 mph, I’ll take the train. At 125, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/36 "2010-08-23T17:00:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > Boise is only a major city in that it’s the biggest city in Idaho, a state not noted for being urban. But it’d only just barely make it onto a list of the top 100 cities in the country. Now, Seattle-Portland-San Francisco-Los Angeles, that’d make a lot more sense. > > OK, but if there’s going to be a HSR line from Salt Lake City to Seattle, no reason it shouldn’t stop at Boise. Man, have you ever been on Amtrak? It’s not just that the train is slow- it’s that the train stops for fifteen minutes in Minot, North Dakota, and every other tiny burg on the line. Any hypothetical Seattle-Salt Lake run can’t stop everywhere, or else you’ll lose the benefits of the _high-speed_ rail. If two trains a day make the run from Seattle to Salt Lake, sure as shooting one of them will be an express, and they might both be. Seattle-Boise service might happen every other day, or twice a week; most long distance train routes will be non-stop, or nearly so. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/37 "2010-08-23T17:44:53Z")
And if you wanted to connect Salt Lake City to the high-speed network, it looks to me like it’d make more sense to go along I-80 through Reno to San Francisco, rather than along I-84 to Seattle. Or maybe I-15 to Las Vegas, thence to Los Angeles. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/38 "2010-08-23T17:57:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And if you wanted to connect Salt Lake City to the high-speed network, it looks to me like it’d make more sense to go along I-80 through Reno to San Francisco, rather than along I-84 to Seattle. Or maybe I-15 to Las Vegas, thence to Los Angeles. Looking at that map, though, it looks like the addition of the SLC-Boise-Seattle link is to make SLC a rail hub. Otherwise, somebody who wants to go east from Seattle-Vancouver will have to first go south to Sacramento and then east from there. In other words, the rail going to Boise isn’t because anybody wants to go to Boise, it’s because people want to go to Seattle. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/39 "2010-08-23T18:15:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > Therein, I suspect, lies the problem. If suburbia becomes more affordable, then undesirable people will be able to move out to the suburbs. > > It’s not just the suburbs. I went to Georgetown University and learned a bit of local history: When the Washington Metro was built, the residents of Georgetown (an upscale historic neighborhood with lots of 19th-Century row houses) opposed and prevented a stop being included anywhere near their neighborhood. (The nearest ones are Dupont Circle and Foggy Bottom-GWU.) Nitpick: Rosslyn is closer than Foggy Bottom, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942/40 "2010-08-23T19:27:19Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > I would argue that getting any great number of people excited about taking the train will be the most impossible PR move of the century. “Excited” was a poor choice of words on my part, but I think my point still stands. If the people who develop something like this think their job is to cut carbon emissions and stimulate the manufacturing sector, they’ll forget to build something that actually works. Maybe there’s no choice in how they sell it to the public, though. This is up for a vote, and they have to promote as many benefits as they can to as many people as they can. I’d still like to see some emphasis on actually using it; promise people something better than driving their cars. > [@](#): > > What do people want most in transport? Freedom. I’ve been hearing that for years, and it strikes me as a platitude with no real meaning. I can understand “flexibility” as a motivation for driving (change, plans, stop when you want, stretch your legs), but that’s a far cry from “freedom”. Besides which, how about freedom from pumping gas, paying for repairs and maintenance, getting stranded by a flat tire, and finding a place to park. Along with the flexibility, there are burdens involved with driving. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mass-transit-referendum-in-hillsborough-county-tampa-florida/550942.md?page=3)