# Massacre in Nairobi shopping mall **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 22, 2013, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413 "2013-09-22T02:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/21 "2013-09-22T23:49:31Z")
[This](http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/22/world/africa/kenya-mall-attack/index.html?hpt=hp_t1) is several levels of weird: > [@](#): > > Sources within Al-Shabaab told CNN that nine names listed on a Twitter site – now suspended – were people who were among the alleged hostage-takers. > > Three of the alleged attackers are from the United States, two are from Somalia and there is one each from Canada, Finland, Kenya and the United Kingdom, according to the list. First, who knew that CNN has sources in Al-Shabaab? Second, who would have guessed that the gunmen came from North America, Finland, and the UK? Somehow it makes an already monstrous crime a little bit worse to think that these were people from comfortably affluent societies traveling around the world to kill innocent people in a poor country. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/22 "2013-09-23T00:05:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They’d have most of the same problems, but they wouldn’t likely be exporting their problems. That attitude is unique to the Islamic world. “Our lives suck, so we’re going to take our domestic disputes abroad and make them everyone’s problem.” You didn’t see Congolese belligerents blowing up community centers in Buenos Aires. Only if you invent an excuse for every incident by non-Muslims. To cite an example I grew up with, go look up the history of ‘The Troubles’, in Northern Ireland, that spread to England and beyond. But of course, that wasn’t _really_ about religion, unlike anything done by a Muslim :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/23 "2013-09-23T00:07:09Z")
See, this is where I hypothesize that some of these asshats really do want to start WWIII. Inevitably someone will speak up and say that’s not the case but honestly, why else export this crap, shoot up innocents in multi-national/multi-cultural settings, and send out operatives with an ethnic mix that could easily incite problems? No doubt these guys are sitting in a cave or safe house or SUV somewhere going "WTF? What does it take to get these infidels off their arses and _fighting?"_ ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/24 "2013-09-23T00:14:42Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > [This](http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/22/world/africa/kenya-mall-attack/index.html?hpt=hp_t1) is several levels of weird: > > First, who knew that CNN has sources in Al-Shabaab? > > Second, who would have guessed that the gunmen came from North America, Finland, and the UK? Somehow it makes an already monstrous crime a little bit worse to think that these were people from comfortably affluent societies traveling around the world to kill innocent people in a poor country. Yeah, I read that article too and the same things stood out to me. I thought their problem was with Kenya’s treatment of Somalia. Some guy in Finland decides to kill innocent people of various nationalities over that? I can’t even begin to imagine what it must be like in these people’s heads. ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/25 "2013-09-23T01:22:14Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Second, who would have guessed that the gunmen came from North America, Finland, and the UK? Somehow it makes an already monstrous crime a little bit worse to think that these were people from comfortably affluent societies traveling around the world to kill innocent people in a poor country. It’s not that surprising, actually, since I have heard in the past that they have actively been recruiting young men from Somali immigrant populations in the US. Here’s one story about the “terrorist pipeline” in Minnesota’s Somali community: [Terrorist pipeline continues to flow from Minn. to Somalia | MPR News](http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2012/10/26/news/terrorist-pipeline-continues-to-flow-from-minnesota-to-somalia) ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/26 "2013-09-24T00:20:34Z")
[One of the final poems by Kofi Awoonor, a prominent African poet who died in the attack](http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2013/09/22/read-one-of-kofi-awoonors-final-poems/). ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/27 "2013-09-24T02:41:11Z")
I was randomly listening to the radio this morning, and the twit on Headline News was reporting on this. She said something like “The horrific situation in Kenya has brought to mind a big question for Americans -are we safe while we shop?!” It was just so…tacky or something. Nothing about the news, or the tragedy of, you know, the actual people who were there. Let’s talk about how safe Buffy is at the mall. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/28 "2013-09-24T12:33:11Z")
It’s a bit startling to me that this is still going on after four days. How much ammunition do these gunmen have? ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/29 "2013-09-24T17:34:22Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > See, this is where I hypothesize that some of these asshats really do want to start WWIII. Inevitably someone will speak up and say that’s not the case but honestly, why else export this crap, shoot up innocents in multi-national/multi-cultural settings, and send out operatives with an ethnic mix that could easily incite problems? They do want to start WWIII. They want a war between Muslims & non-Muslims. You might compare these guys to Charles Manson and his “family,” trying to incite a race war. Somebody mentioned northern Ireland’s “Troubles.” At its heart, the Troubles were an ethnic conflict. The Protestants are people of British descent, who were viewed by the Catholics (Irish) as invaders. The religious angle was simply the easiest way to distinguish between “us” and “them.” For comparison, imagine if, in the US, large-scale violence broke out between hispanics and “anglo” whites. It would basically be the same situation as the Troubles. In the US, we would probably blame it on language differences(English vs. Spanish) simply because that would be the easist distinction to make. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/30 "2013-09-24T19:30:29Z")
I posit that this was a “proof of concept” attack. The mall has been described as very “Western” in layout and nature, frequented by ex-pats as well as affluent locals. I’ve said for years that if you wanted to bring the U.S. to a grinding halt that a co-ordinated attack on 3-4 malls just like this during the Christmas shopping season would do quite nicely. The fact that some of these animals were from the U.S. should be highly disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/31 "2013-09-24T20:36:39Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > I posit that this was a “proof of concept” attack. The mall has been described as very “Western” in layout and nature, frequented by ex-pats as well as affluent locals. I’ve said for years that if you wanted to bring the U.S. to a grinding halt that a co-ordinated attack on 3-4 malls just like this during the Christmas shopping season would do quite nicely. The fact that some of these animals were from the U.S. should be highly disturbing. I agree with you that it would not surprise me if Al Qaeda were planning to try this in America as well. We have certainly had mall shootings before. I do wonder if the prevalence of private citizens who own guns in the United States might make a difference in how successful they would be though. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/32 "2013-09-24T22:45:27Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > They do want to start WWIII. They want a war between Muslims & non-Muslims. You can’t imagine their leaders want that, though. Consider a case where the non-Muslim world seriously believed that their way of life was in jeopardy because of these yahoos. Right now, the western nations aren’t willing to accept the civilian and non-terrorist Muslim losses that would be entailed in a real war. But if the West could be pushed to the point where that didn’t matter? Where we were willing consider whole Muslim nations as enemies, not just groups within them? It would be the shortest war in history. One side has what amounts to sticks and stones, the other side has a nuclear arsenal and the best-trained and equipped militaries on the planet. There will be no new worldwide Caliphate, not by that means. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/33 "2013-09-25T00:37:12Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Somebody mentioned northern Ireland’s “Troubles.” At its heart, the Troubles were an ethnic conflict. The Protestants are people of British descent, who were viewed by the Catholics (Irish) as invaders. The religious angle was simply the easiest way to distinguish between “us” and “them.” For comparison, imagine if, in the US, large-scale violence broke out between hispanics and “anglo” whites. It would basically be the same situation as the Troubles. In the US, we would probably blame it on language differences(English vs. Spanish) simply because that would be the easist distinction to make. I mentioned them, and I’m fully aware of that (I’m English, incidently, and half my family are Irish Catholic). The thing is, I think this situation is probably pretty similar. Kenya has a very large local Muslim population -the coastal region is Muslim majority- but that’s not where the trouble is coming from. This is tribal/ethnic conflict, not religious. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/34 "2013-09-25T00:49:57Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > It’s a bit startling to me that this is still going on after four days. How much ammunition do these gunmen have? If they’re carrying a few hundred rounds apiece, plus explosives, they won’t run out _that_ fast, if they are properly trained. Inside a shopping mall is a labyrinthine exercise in urban warfare, and because of concern for hostages and for civilians who may be cowering in some stockroom (and to be realistic, for the economic impact), the authorities would not launch the sort of full-on attack that could end it quick but also likely wipe out most still-living things in there and perhaps level the building. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/35 "2013-09-25T00:57:28Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > I agree with you that it would not surprise me if Al Qaeda were planning to try this in America as well. We have certainly had mall shootings before. > > I do wonder if the prevalence of private citizens who own guns in the United States might make a difference in how successful they would be though. A few of the [articles](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2430324/Kenya-mall-attack-Up-3-American-teens-Minnesota-involved-Nairobi-massacre.html) in the excellent reporting the Daily Mail has done on the story mention that there were numerous private guards for the businesses in the mall. Accounts from other internet sites claim that many of those guards were armed with fully automatic battle rifles like the H&K G3 or various versions of AKs. This [short paper](http://www.academia.edu/558821/Armed_Violence_Taking_Place_Within_Societies_SALW_and_Armed_Violence_In_Urban_Areas) from the Peace Research Institute of Oslo claims that both rifles are popular also with Nairobi’s organized criminal activity. Given stories I’ve heard from family members visiting countries like Mexico and the Philippines even 20-30 years ago, and seeing guards with M16s in front of banks and jewelers, this is not surprising. Admittedly, most of the guards my family saw were soldiers, IIRC, not private guards. The photographs from the Mail show a large diversity of both rifles and pistols being used by the multitude of police and private security groups performing the clearing and hostage rescue. Anyway, I have yet to see guards in a U.S mall with assault rifles. Even the Tiffany or the DeBeers showrooms. Even in a city with a high proportion of concealed weapons carriers and private armed guards, I don’t see the assault going any less well for the terrorists. It strikes me as a real problem, one that I don’t see the likes of TSA being able to solve. Though no doubt they will try to show that they’ll try. From time to time, U.S. law enforcement does practice domestically operating against a similar style of terrorist group. Google “Port Everglades” and “Native Born Terrorists” for a recent exercise in Florida. Thankfully, it seems to be tougher to smuggle a team of 10-15 suicidal gunmen + military ordnance into the U.S., than into a country sharing a multiple hundred mile long border with Somalia, given that we haven’t seen any evidence of a similar attack being planned. For now, anyway. EDIT: OTOH, on JRDelirious’s point about a full-on assault, the mall assault and siege ended with three of the four mall levels collapsing on themselves. I.e., some serious explosives and fires had to have been used. I’m curious how many of the last 30 or so hostages that had been held for the last two days managed to survive. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/36 "2013-09-25T01:17:22Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > I agree with you that it would not surprise me if Al Qaeda were planning to try this in America as well. We have certainly had mall shootings before. > > I do wonder if the prevalence of private citizens who own guns in the United States might make a difference in how successful they would be though. good question. Drop 4 jets on different targets, and unlike many other responses we basically try to bomb Afghanistan into the stone age. We have the odd reputation of bringing jets, bombs and armor into a gun fight. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/37 "2013-09-25T01:46:42Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > good question. Drop 4 jets on different targets, and unlike many other responses we basically try to bomb Afghanistan into the stone age. We have the odd reputation of bringing jets, bombs and armor into a gun fight. The problem is that both sides are hooked on gun-tech: pellets shot through tubes because humans leak. Why not change it up some and give them what they can’t possibly expect? Assuming all doors can be sealed from leaking up to the second floor, flood the place with a non-flammable heavier than air gas (or even cold water) that forces living mammals to climb up stairs and away from cover to breathe. Allowing for some hypothermia, arrest / dispatch at leisure. Works on rats; should work on terrorists… ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/38 "2013-09-25T02:35:45Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > A few of the [articles](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2430324/Kenya-mall-attack-Up-3-American-teens-Minnesota-involved-Nairobi-massacre.html) in the excellent reporting the Daily Mail has done on the story mention that there were numerous private guards for the businesses in the mall. Accounts from other internet sites claim that many of those guards were armed with fully automatic battle rifles like the H&K G3 or various versions of AKs. Wow, they don’t mess around. Here they have walkie-talkies. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/39 "2013-09-25T04:23:55Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Thankfully, it seems to be tougher to smuggle a team of 10-15 suicidal gunmen + military ordnance into the U.S… The scary thing is that such smuggling might not be necessary, if indeed some of the gunmen started _from_ the US. ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413/40 "2013-09-29T01:55:41Z")
[Now there are reports that the victims were tortured](http://nypost.com/2013/09/27/kenya-terrorists-tortured-victims/): > [@](#): > > Ghoulish terrorists tortured and mutilated their hostages during the Kenya mall seizure and turned the Nairobi complex into a scene out of a horror movie, a police doctor said. > Men were blinded and castrated before they were hung from hooks, he said. The bodies of children were found in restauant refrigerators with knives stuck in them. > “These are not allegations. These are f–king truths,” the forensic doctor told Kenyan newspaper The Star. Another situation where the human race sickens me with what it is capable of. ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massacre-in-nairobi-shopping-mall/669413.md?page=3)