# Masses in perpetuity: Are there any still being done? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 2, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970 "2016-04-02T20:41:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![funky\_little\_lee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@funky\_little\_lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/funky_little_lee)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/1 "2016-04-02T20:41:51Z")
Every so often you read about medieval notables who left money for masses to be said for ever and ever for the benefit of their souls. Obviously at some point the money was going to run out–but are there any cases where the masses are still being offered, say as a local tradition? I’m sure in Britain the custom must have been abolished in the Reformation, but what about on the Continent? ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/2 "2016-04-03T12:28:01Z")
To provide a first reply that narrows down a time range to beat in our quest for the oldest: [This website](http://www.karmelitenorden.de/straubing/presse/srtb061012.html) (in German only) says that in a monastery in Straubing, Bavaria, there has been a perpetual mass (first every day, nowadays once a year with a hiatus from 1802 until 1831) for a past Duke of Bavaria and his [mistress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnes_Bernauer) (who is a popular figure in Bavarian folklore) since 1436. Also from Bavaria, the [Fugger family](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugger), one of the wealthiest and most influential trade and banking dynasties in Europe in the late Middle Ages set up a [social housing complex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuggerei) in the city of Augsburg in 1516, providing residences for poor citizens at a merely nominal rent. The complex still exists, and to this day residents are required to say prayers for the founder and his family, even though I don’t think this requirement is in any way enforced. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/3 "2016-04-03T14:35:24Z")
> [@funky\_little\_lee](#): > > Every so often you read about medieval notables who left money for masses to be said for ever and ever for the benefit of their souls. Obviously at some point the money was going to run out What, they didn’t have annuities and compound interest back then? I understand that interest-bearing loans were onced prohibited as usury, but it seems that [Medieval banks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking#Medieval_Europe) did indeed exist and that, as in modern-day Islam, they had various legal fictions for avoiding the usury prohibition. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/4 "2016-04-03T18:55:54Z")
If the money was invested then it could pay out in perpetuity. Charitable foundations from medieval times still exist, like the Charity of Sir Richard Whittington, still administered by the Mercer’s Company. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/5 "2016-04-03T20:33:18Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > …in a monastery in Straubing, Bavaria, there has been a perpetual mass (first every day, nowadays once a year with a hiatus from 1802 until 1831) for a past Duke of Bavaria and his [mistress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnes_Bernauer) (who is a popular figure in Bavarian folklore) since 1436. > > Also from Bavaria,…The complex still exists, and to this day residents are required to say prayers for the founder and his family, even though I don’t think this requirement is in any way enforced. I wonder what sort of enforcement mechanisms or penalties still exist _in theory_. I would imagine that there would be none in secular law (at least anymore) but I wouldn’t be surprised if failure to pray as required might be some sort of sin in the Catholic Church for which the perpetrator would be expected to go to Confession to resolve. ---
**Author:** ![ticker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@ticker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ticker)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/6 "2016-04-04T00:39:08Z")
Not really a mass as such, but close. I went to a school which, although a state school when I attended, was originally founded as a charity in 1536 and there were several benefactors who added to the original bequest. One particular bequest made in the 17th century gave a sum of money annually to be distributed amongst the pupils of the school so long as they attended a church service in his memory. Over the years the value of the bequest had eroded in real terms, and the number of pupils at the school went from a few tens to a thousand or so, so it was worth very little per head. However, to keep the tradition alive the school choral society would attend the service in a beautiful church in the City of London, sing some songs, and the money was spent on cakes and ice cream for the singers. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/7 "2016-04-04T01:20:54Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > What, they didn’t have annuities and compound interest back then? I understand that interest-bearing loans were onced prohibited as usury, but it seems that [Medieval banks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking#Medieval_Europe) did indeed exist and that, as in modern-day Islam, they had various legal fictions for avoiding the usury prohibition. Bequests to endow perpetual masses wouldn’t typically be invested in financial instruments. If you were doing the thing on a grand scale you would leave enough money to endow a monastery or nunnery - build the buildings, buy enough land to generate an income sufficient to maintain the monks or nuns - and direct that the monks/nuns were to pray daily for the benefactor. The prayers would continue for as along as the foundation lasted. Even if the foundation later became unviable, it was quite likely that rather than being simply abandoned it would be merged into another foundation of the same religions order, who would then be expected to continue with the prayers (as well as the prayers directed by the founder of the second foundation). If you weren’t doing things on quite such a scale, you could leave money to an existing monastery/nunnery, on condition that they would pray for you. This was a condition they were mostly happy to accept, since their whole _raison d’etre_ was praying for the world. Again, if the monastery or nunnery closed, it was quite likely that this would happen in circumstances where the remaining monks/nuns and the remaning assets were transferred to another foundation, and the prayers would continue. These arrangements would continue, if not perpetually, then at least indefinitely (Of course a lot of these arrangements came to an end at the Reformation. Equally, a lot didn’t.) You could also endow institutions other than monasteries and nunneries. New College, Oxford was founded by William of Wykeham in 1379 to to praise God, support the Faith, pray for the souls of the Founder, his relatives and other benefactors and to provide higher education for the clergy. The prayers for Wykeham and his family continue to this day. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/8 "2016-04-04T01:42:15Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > What, they didn’t have annuities and compound interest back then? I understand that interest-bearing loans were onced prohibited as usury, but it seems that [Medieval banks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking#Medieval_Europe) did indeed exist and that, as in modern-day Islam, they had various legal fictions for avoiding the usury prohibition. The worst of the legal fictions was that interest could not be charged by Christians; however, Jews could lend money to Christians at interest. The reason I say “worst” is because of all the fallout over the centuries from that. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/9 "2016-04-04T02:21:46Z")
And it should be mentioned that you can still commission masses in perpetuity. There are a number of Catholic religious orders who will add you, or your prayer intentions, to the masses said daily at their mother church, or to the masses said by all members of the order. This will continue for so long as the order continues. In return they ask you to make a one-off “suggested donation”, which is usually fairly modest. [Here](https://www.salesianmissions.org/mission-gifts/gifts/perpetual-enrollment-masses), for example, you can organise it with the Salesian Fathers. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/10 "2016-04-05T21:26:14Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > And it should be mentioned that you can still commission masses in perpetuity. There are a number of Catholic religious orders who will add you, or your prayer intentions, to the masses said daily at their mother church, or to the masses said by all members of the order. This will continue for so long as the order continues. . No. That is not true. Its not a commissioned mass, its a card which contains a weak promise that during a mass (which is previously scheduled so its not commissioned by the card buyer !) the card recipient will be remembered. A commissioned mass would be at least half an hour specific to the commission. If 48 people commission a mass, then the day is full, they couldn’t possibly have any more commissioned masses that day. The situation is more like an All Saints Mass, where the left overs are remembered. Just as All Saints is “and we remember all the other Saints”, the mass for the cards… “We remember all those people named on those cards over there”. Maybe they do a random draw of names … “John and Mary and Sue ,for example !” Its simply not possible to read out the names from all the cards. Unless they play a recording on fast forward… and then record that… and that and that… and play the result on fast forward… Its just not a mass specific to one person as per the OP. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/11 "2016-04-05T22:29:08Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > I wonder what sort of enforcement mechanisms or penalties still exist _in theory_. I would imagine that there would be none in secular law (at least anymore) but I wouldn’t be surprised if failure to pray as required might be some sort of sin in the Catholic Church for which the perpetrator would be expected to go to Confession to resolve. Well it could constitute a breach of contract. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/12 "2016-04-05T22:40:35Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > The situation is more like an All Saints Mass, where the left overs are remembered. Just as All Saints is “and we remember all the other Saints”, the mass for the cards… “We remember all those people named on those cards over there”. Right – I imagine the intercessions each day would include one generically for “our benefactors” or similar. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/13 "2016-04-06T00:39:43Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Bequests to endow perpetual masses wouldn’t typically be invested in financial instruments. If you were doing the thing on a grand scale you would leave enough money to endow a monastery or nunnery - build the buildings, buy enough land to generate an income sufficient to maintain the monks or nuns - and direct that the monks/nuns were to pray daily for the benefactor. The prayers would continue for as along as the foundation lasted…If you weren’t doing things on quite such a scale, you could leave money to an existing monastery/nunnery, on condition that they would pray for you. This was a condition they were mostly happy to accept, since their whole _raison d’etre_ was praying for the world… > You could also endow institutions other than monasteries and nunneries. New College, Oxford was founded by William of Wykeham in 1379 to to praise God, support the Faith, pray for the souls of the Founder, his relatives and other benefactors and to provide higher education for the clergy. The prayers for Wykeham and his family continue to this day. I have to ask - is it possible (or was it ever possible) for an average person to make money praying for other people? That is, not as professional clergy, but e.g. just as someone who posted offers on the community bulletin board for five prayers for a shilling or whatnot. Has that ever been a thing? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/14 "2016-04-06T01:31:38Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > Its just not a mass specific to one person as per the OP. The OP doesn’t reference a “mass specific to one person”. And rightly so. Back in the day, when people founded religious houses or left large bequests for masses, with instructions to pray for the donor, they didn’t request _exclusive_ prayers.masses for the donor. If they had, that would have been theologically problematic. A request to pray for/celebrate a mass for the repose of the soul of, say, King Edward VI is satisfied by praying for/saying a mass for that intention, with or without other intentions. And whatever spiritual value you think the prayer or mass has or doesn’t have for the late King is not at all affected, in any degree, by whether the celebrant has other intentions as well. Since the merits of Christ’s sacrifice are infinite, you can’t diminish them by subdivision, so to speak. So, for those who see any value in commissioning prayers/masses for themselves or their family or whoever, it’s not a problem for them if the celebrant also has other intentions in mind. And if somebody _did_ request a mass exclusively for himself, that’s a request to the celebrant not to pray for others, which would be viewed as uncharitable, to put it no higher; hence the theological problem that would arise in accepting the bequest. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/15 "2016-04-06T02:41:03Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > , as in modern-day Islam, they had various legal fictions for avoiding the usury prohibition. That is slightly unfair. When I was in treasury, Islamic Finance did have some practical differences on both the borrower and lender side. It might look the same to you, but that’s a bit like saying that you look like your brother: it doesn’t mean you are the same, and it doesn’t mean that people who know you can’t tell the difference. > [@Monty](#): > > The worst of the legal fictions was that interest could not be charged by Christians; however, Jews could lend money to Christians at interest. The prohibition on Christians lending money to Christians at interest was matched, of course, by the prohibition on Jews lending money to Jews at interest. > [@Monty](#): > > The reason I say “worst” is because of all the fallout over the centuries from that. –Now it’s the banks that we hate. (Non-Islamic) business finance is the weak to the wall, and the devil take the hindermost. FWIW, retail bank lending has some [not all] of the same kind of restrictions as Islamic/Islamic finance and Christion finance and Jewish/Jewish finance. Hopefully you don’t see those restrictions: they should be regulations that you don’t have to know about unless you get cheated. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/16 "2016-04-06T02:43:13Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > Well it could constitute a breach of contract. Which would be tried in the church courts, not the secular courts. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/17 "2016-04-06T02:57:00Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > I have to ask - is it possible (or was it ever possible) for an average person to make money praying for other people? That is, not as professional clergy, but e.g. just as someone who posted offers on the community bulletin board for five prayers for a shilling or whatnot. Has that ever been a thing? Apparently it’s a thing even nowadays in the Philippines for the so-called [“prayer ladies”](http://factsanddetails.com/southeast-asia/Philippines/sub5_6c/entry-3862.html): > [@](#): > > Prayer ladies can be hired for as little as a few pesos. One of them told the Los Angeles Times, “God does not care who the prayer is coming from, as long as the person who paid for the prayer is sincere.” The ladies […] can be hired to pray for anything: good health, love from a special person, good grades, help kicking drugs, protection from terrorists. Sometimes the ladies serve as make-shift priests, listening to the confessions and problems of their customers. > > Many of the people who hire prayer ladies also pray themselves and say they hire the ladies because of their skill in praying and the belief that offering as many prayers as possible from as many people as possible increases the chance of a prayer being answered. One prayer lady told the Los Angeles Times, “Most of my prayers are answered.” People “often come back to me to thank me, especially if they passed the bar or medical exam.” ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/18 "2016-06-03T02:20:14Z")
Apparently paryers are still being said for the Fuggers: The Augsburg Fuggerei lease conditions are 1 Rheinischer Gulden per year, plus 3 daily prayers (the Lord’s Prayer, Hail Mary, and the Nicene Creed). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/19 "2016-06-03T02:35:42Z")
About a month ago, I read an [article](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/11/t-magazine/travel/corsini-family-600-year-archives.html) in The New York Times about a Florentine family that kept detailed records, starting in 1362, for six hundred years. One paragraph stood out, because it mentions a mass in perpetuity, “Opening an early tome, I stumble on the last will and testament of Cardinal Pietro Corsini who died in 1403. Written in both Latin and Italian, it fills a thick book 18 inches tall. The fine clothes he is dressed in for burial, the cardinal warns, must not be removed from his body. Two hundred gold florins are left to a monastery, on condition that the monks recognize a ‘solemn obligation’ to say prayers for the cardinal’s soul ‘in perpetuity.’” ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/masses-in-perpetuity-are-there-any-still-being-done/750970/20 "2016-06-03T17:52:37Z")
Fear not. We all know that mass can not be destroyed. It is perpetual.