# Massive Excavating With Atomic Bombs-Feasible Now? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 27, 2013, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500 "2013-02-27T07:29:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/1 "2013-02-27T07:29:45Z")
Back in the 1950’s many projects (a new Panama Canal), Isthmus of Kra Canal, were proposed-excavated by nuclear explosions. Of course, these were abandoned when it became obvious that radioactive fallout would make such projects too dangerous. I wonder if research into nuclear explosives has continued-is it now possible to make bombs that produce small amounts of fallout (so that excavations with them would be safe)? ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/2 "2013-02-27T08:52:46Z")
WAG: No. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/3 "2013-02-27T12:07:59Z")
My opinion is the fallout can’t be avoided in excavations. The fallout comes from the material the nukes blow out of the ground and irradiate. The whole point of excavation is to move dirt. If you want to move dirt with nukes, some of that dirt will become radioactive crap that falls out of the sky and onto our own planet. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/4 "2013-02-27T14:20:37Z")
Ray-dee-ayshun. You hear the most pernicious nonsense about radiation… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/5 "2013-02-27T14:35:07Z")
The catch is that cratering detonations are the very worst in terms of fallout- the Sedan shot in 1962 that was part of Operation Plowshare, was the highest in terms of fallout of any of the continental US nuclear tests, and only created a 100m x 400m crater. It would take many, many explosions like that to excavate anything worthwhile that couldn’t be done with conventional explosives and earthmoving equipment. > **[Project Plowshare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Plowshare)** > > Project Plowshare was the overall United States program for the development of techniques to use nuclear explosives for peaceful construction purposes. The program was organized in June 1957 as part of the worldwide Atoms for Peace efforts. As part of the program, 35 nuclear warheads were detonated in 27 separate tests. A similar program was carried out in the Soviet Union under the name Nuclear Explosions for the National Economy. > Successful demonstrations of non-combat uses for nuclear explo... > **[Sedan (nuclear test)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedan_(nuclear_test))** > > Storax Sedan was a shallow underground nuclear test conducted in Area 10 of Yucca Flat at the Nevada National Security Site on July 6, 1962, as part of Operation Plowshare, a program to investigate the use of nuclear weapons for mining, cratering, and other civilian purposes. The radioactive fallout from the test contaminated more US residents than any other nuclear test. The Sedan Crater is the largest human-made crater in the United States and is listed on the National Register of Historic P Se... ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/6 "2013-02-27T15:58:24Z")
I’m a little baffled as to what kind of “research” will somehow enable us to disappear several tons of radioactive dirt blown into the atmosphere. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/7 "2013-02-27T16:26:19Z")
As mentioned already, the fallout issue is the unavoidable killer. They not only talked about excavating a harbor in Alaska or a canal through Panama or Nicarague – they were thinking of setting off a bomb underground in Pennsylvania (!) as part of Project Gasbuggy. The idea was to stimulate the outpouring of natural gas. (Note to opponents of “fracking” – it coulda been MUCH worse). The problem, again, was radioactivity – the natural gas would have been heavily laced with radioactive material, and unusable. The Priohect Sedan crater, which was what they set off in Nevada when they couldn’t get approval for setting off a bomb in Alaska, is still dangerously radioactive. And, jusdt for kicks, they found out many years later that someone had dumped some radiactive material at the proposed site of Project Chariot in Alaska, apparently to see how the radioactive material migrated through time. They didn’t tell the local folks about this. See the book **the Firecracker Boys**. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/8 "2013-02-27T16:34:35Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > they were thinking of setting off a bomb underground in Pennsylvania (!) as part of Project Gasbuggy. The idea was to stimulate the outpouring of natural gas. (Note to opponents of “fracking” – it coulda been MUCH worse). I used to drive by one the of Gasbuggy wells in northern New Mexico on my way to work. Not only did it turn the sand stone to glass and create an impermeable barrier to flow but there are still issues with producing that formation to this day. So they weren’t just thinking of it they actually did it twice. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/9 "2013-02-27T18:43:18Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > I used to drive by one the of Gasbuggy wells in northern New Mexico on my way to work. Not only did it turn the sand stone to glass and create an impermeable barrier to flow but there are still issues with producing that formation to this day. So they weren’t just thinking of it they actually did it twice. Yreah, but they didn’t do it in Pennsylvania – _that_’s what I meant by "they were thinking of it. > **[Project Gasbuggy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gasbuggy)** > > Project Gasbuggy was an underground nuclear detonation carried out by the United States Atomic Energy Commission on December 10, 1967 in rural northwestern New Mexico. It was part of Operation Plowshare, a program designed to find peaceful uses for nuclear explosions. > Gasbuggy was carried out by the Lawrence Livermore Radiation Laboratory and the El Paso Natural Gas Company, with funding from the Atomic Energy Commission. Its purpose was to determine if nuclear explosions could be useful in fr... ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/10 "2013-02-27T19:08:29Z")
Wait a minute. “Let’s stimulate the outpouring of natural gas” - _with a large explosion???_ And not one person thought up front how this was stupid on epic levels? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/11 "2013-02-27T19:15:48Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Wait a minute. “Let’s stimulate the outpouring of natural gas” - _with a large explosion???_ > > And not one person thought up front how this was stupid on epic levels? Nope. They were desperate to find “peaceful” uses for the atomic bomb. You could as easily say the sme about the Project Plowshare atomic excavation project. When I first heard about these, my immediate reaction was – “That won’t work – there’ll be way too much radiation and fallout.” Surely they knew this far better than I did. But Teller, for one, was obsessed with proving the utility of peaceful nukes, and pushed very hard for Project Chariot and its blasting of a deep harbor in Alaska with five bomnbs. Even though the local residents wanted nothing to do with this. And even though nobody had a conceivable use for such a harbor (this was long before the Arctic reserves were characterized, or even feasible). see **the Firecracker Boys** > **[Project Chariot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chariot_(1958))** > > Project Chariot was a 1958 United States Atomic Energy Commission proposal to construct an artificial harbor at Cape Thompson on the North Slope of the U.S. state of Alaska by burying and detonating a string of nuclear devices. > The project originated as part of Operation Plowshare, a research project to find peaceful uses for nuclear explosives. Substantial local opposition, objections from physical and social scientists engaged in environmental studies, and the absence of any credible econom... [http://arcticcircle.uconn.edu/SEEJ/chariotseej.html](http://arcticcircle.uconn.edu/SEEJ/chariotseej.html) [http://arcticcircle.uconn.edu/VirtualClassroom/Chariot/vandegraft.html](http://arcticcircle.uconn.edu/VirtualClassroom/Chariot/vandegraft.html) ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/12 "2013-02-27T19:20:49Z")
This thread makes me want to sign off saying… -Excavating (With A Nuke) ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/13 "2013-02-27T19:46:51Z")
> [@bump](#): > > [Sedan (nuclear test) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedan_(nuclear_test)) I love the fact that a typo on the congressional record led the Sudanese government to complain about the US conducting nuclear tests in their country 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/14 "2013-02-27T21:22:12Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > . . . -Excavating (With A Nuke) I hadn’t realized that the “Miner, Forty-Niner” was from 1949! ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/15 "2013-02-27T22:12:03Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I hadn’t realized that the “Miner, Forty-Niner” was from 1949! I’m… not sure what this means exactly. My post was in reference to our good poster **excavating (for a mind)** who always ends his posts with his username. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/16 "2013-03-02T19:05:45Z")
I know pure fusion bombs don’t yet exist (or, if they do, they’re classified), but is there a thermonuclear design that can give more bang for a lower radioactive “buck?” ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/17 "2013-03-03T06:58:26Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Nope. They were desperate to find “peaceful” uses for the atomic bomb. I’m not sure if “desperate” is exactly the right word, but yeah, there was significant pressure from the government (and significant funding) to develop some sort of peaceful use of nukes that we could point to. The purpose was, of course, not that we needed canals or harbors, but that we wanted to develop nuclear weapons and use some ostensible peaceful purpose a s a cover story to escape international opprobrium. > [@cmyk](#): > > I know pure fusion bombs don’t yet exist (or, if they do, they’re classified), but is there a thermonuclear design that can give more bang for a lower radioactive “buck?” No, fusion weapons still require a fission trigger (a “pit,” in DOE parlance). Although fusion _per se_ is cleaner than fission, you’d still have some radiation from fusion, and the pit itself is still fissile. In fact, the biggest bang of all comes from multi-stage weapons in which a fissile pit creates conditions that permit a fusion stage (typically tritium injection) which, in its turn, creates conditions that will fission a heavy outer shell, or tamper, of U-238 (the natural, un-enriched form) which normally will NOT fission outside of the extreme conditions the fusion stage created). Current state-of-the-art is both classified and unknown to me, but [Richard Rhodes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rhodes#Nuclear_history) described the [Teller-Ulam multi-stage design](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teller-Ulam) in his book, _Dark Sun_, as getting _the majority_ of its yield from the third stage (fission of the tamper). Note that fission of the U-238 is fairly dirty. Since the point of using a nuke in the first place is supposedly to move huge volumes of earth, the really big yields would be necessary. The really big yields would seem to necessitate this relatively dirty design (with the fissile tamper stage), and of course all the earth moved would be contaminated and dispersed into the environment (a politer term than saying “your children.”) ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/18 "2013-03-03T09:30:12Z")
I’ve sometimes wondered about using nuclear “excavation” by [producing _subsidence_ craters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidence_crater), wherein the blast (and fallout) is actually contained underground, instead of just blowing the crap out material out of the crater. Indeed, a quick check online indicates that the [Soviets did possibly conduct some tests along those lines](http://www.princeton.edu/sgs/publications/sgs/pdf/7_1nordyke.pdf), for the possibility of building reservoirs. Although, as I guessed, local geology is the deciding factor in if the effect can be pulled off, limiting it’s use. ---
**Author:** ![eltro102](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@eltro102](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eltro102)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/19 "2013-03-03T19:23:38Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > I know pure fusion bombs don’t yet exist (or, if they do, they’re classified), but is there a thermonuclear design that can give more bang for a lower radioactive “buck?” even if they did, the neutron flux from it would make anything it touches radioactive ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500/20 "2013-03-03T23:20:56Z")
> [@eltro102](#): > > even if they did, the neutron flux from it would make anything it touches radioactive “Anything”? Now, I have to ask…how bad _would_ the radioactivity from neutron capture be in a nuclear excavation, assuming you used a pure fusion weapon? (However you managed to build one, without a fission primary…hauling a [giant laser](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ignition_Facility) out to the dig site might be _slightly_ impractical.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-excavating-with-atomic-bombs-feasible-now/651500.md?page=2)