# Massive measles outbreak - thank you, Andrew Fucking Wakefield **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119 "2013-04-19T10:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/181 "2013-04-25T17:22:48Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’m comfortable with having the bar set by medically-trained personnel, the kind who give vaccinations as a matter of course, but still recognize factors that lead them to recommend against their use for certain patients. > > TL;DR: A doctor’s note. I’d say a note from three separate doctors; it’s possible for one doctor to be an idiot (like doctors who won’t give epidurals through back tattoos). > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > “woollyheaded” ? > > I immediately reacted to this previously unknown adjective perceiving racism yet I appear alone. Does the “woolly” represent something other than “nappy” As has been noted, woollyheaded thinking is a fairly common expression; I think it comes from sheep who are notorious for not being able to act independently of the herd. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/182 "2013-04-25T18:36:23Z")
For those convinced (a la Wakefield) that vaccines cause autism, here’s news to make your head spin around - [an anti-autism vaccine](http://www.genengnews.com/gen-news-highlights/gut-bug-vaccine-may-alleviate-autism-symptoms/81248277/). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/183 "2013-04-25T19:15:34Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > For those convinced (a la Wakefield) that vaccines cause autism, here’s news to make your head spin around - [an anti-autism vaccine](http://www.genengnews.com/gen-news-highlights/gut-bug-vaccine-may-alleviate-autism-symptoms/81248277/). No doubt it causes measles. Besides, it’s better to get autism naturally. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/184 "2013-04-26T00:06:39Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’d be comfortable seeing the State Department initiate a policy of withholding passports from non-vaccinated Americans. And withholding visas from non-vaccinated foreigners. I recognize, of course, that it couldn’t be an absolutist policy. That said, I believe it could be accomplished with a high bar for anyone who needed to secure an exemption (higher than Jennymccarthy-ist beliefs, at least). > [@SciFiSam](#): > > I’d be happy for visas to be withheld (excepting a doctor’s note) but not passports. They’re essential ID for anyone who can’t drive and other countries can make their own decisions about whether or not to let unvaccinated people in. Anyone can get a state identification card that doesn’t require them to be able to drive. Hell, my wife has one. And if some country like Surinam wants to let unvaccinated folks in, I can see letting them make that decision for themselves. But if we let them have a passport, there isn’t any way for us to prevent them coming _back_. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/185 "2013-04-26T00:12:37Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Are state IDs widely accepted in other states? Yes. Same as driving licenses. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/186 "2013-04-26T04:04:47Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I ask again. Which particular vaccines do you dislike and which particular diseases would you want to bring back if we stop vaccinating? The MMR so we can get measles, mumps and rubella again? The DTaP so we can get more pertusiss, more tetanus and more diphtheria? The polio? The hib? The hep b? The gardasil? The rotovirus? :rolleyes: Ya know, if you took a bunch of emotionalism out of this, people would probably take you more seriously. Yes, I wrote “I personally would have a lot of trouble approving all of those shots if I had a kid” - where in there does it even suggest I want to “bring back” any of those diseases (which is an odd way to put it since they are still around)? Add to that the fact you know I have no kids and will never have any, so we are obviously not talking about any real children not getting vaccines. I’ve made decisions on what vaccines I skip and what my pets skip after a _lot_ of research, so if I did have a kid, I do the same thing - make an informed decision. If that decision didn’t perfectly agree with you, that doesn’t mean it is ignorant. And yes, I do note that you are only responding to - I mean, blowing completely out of proportion - one sentence of my post. Unable to come up with an intelligent response to the rest? ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/187 "2013-04-26T08:29:09Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I’ve made decisions on what vaccines I skip and what my pets skip after a _lot_ of research, Which ones are those? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/188 "2013-04-26T12:40:00Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Ya know, if you took a bunch of emotionalism out of this, people would probably take you more seriously. The book on the subject **Kolga** and I co-authored got the following review so I suppose someone did take us seriously: > [@](#): > > From Booklist > This thoroughly researched book should convince even ardent vaccine skeptics that the benefits of giving kids shots to prevent illnesses far outweigh any negatives. The authors are not big names in the vaccine world (one is a freelance writer, and the other is a psychology professor. Yet they show a commanding knowledge of their topic. In a coup that lends credibility to their scientifically sound book, they nabbed a foreword by Paul Offit, the famous University of Pennsylvania pediatrician who coinvented the rotavirus vaccine and who forcefully (and correctly) maintained that autism is not linked to inoculations. > > Herlihy and Hagood present many interesting facts: today there are vaccines against 22 diseases; George Washington and Abraham Lincoln survived smallpox; in 1979, smallpox officially became “the first disease conquered by human efforts”; the flavor enhancer MSG is added to vaccines to preserve their efficacy. An index would have been helpful, but this book, with its extensive notes and bibliography, should go a long way toward convincing even the most leery that vaccines save lives. --Karen Springen FYI, the book does have an index. A ten page one and eighteen pages of endnotes. Dr. Paul Offit, head of the Infectious Diseases Unit of the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia said this about the book in a private email: > [@](#): > > Loved the book. Wonderful job. 😃 So are you going to answer the question **Dave Hartwick** and I asked you? Where did you do your research? My co-author and I used various sources including pubmed and an interview with Dr. Offit. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/189 "2013-04-26T12:56:39Z")
Here’s a good reason to skip a veterinary vaccine: anaphylaxis from a ferret-approved version of the canine distemper vaccination. This is apparently not uncommon with this particular vaccine. My vet allowed our allergic ferret to get his titers checked yearly in lieu of automatic vaccination, and if he was still showing sufficient antibodies, he could skip it. Otherwise I would opt for vaccination followed with Benadryl and monitoring. Fortunately he was good for a few years at least from the last one he had done. Skipping it if his antibodies were too low was not an option; my husband is a letter carrier and walks through many dog-traversed lawns daily. Canine distemper can hitch a ride on your shoes, even, via an infected dog’s various secretions. Without anaphylaxis plus diligent titer-checking, I’m at a loss as to what another good reason might be. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/190 "2013-04-26T13:05:06Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > For those convinced (a la Wakefield) that vaccines cause autism, here’s news to make your head spin around - [an anti-autism vaccine](http://www.genengnews.com/gen-news-highlights/gut-bug-vaccine-may-alleviate-autism-symptoms/81248277/). That’s not quite what that says, although it would be fun to ask an anti-vaxxer what they’d do if someone did invent an anti-autism vaccine. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/191 "2013-04-26T13:13:20Z")
[QUOTE= Booklist] This thoroughly researched book should convince even ardent vaccine skeptics that the benefits of giving kids shots to prevent illnesses far outweigh any negatives. [/QUOTE] Unfortunately, not a fucking chance in the world. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/192 "2013-04-26T13:38:37Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > So, might as well do what feels better. Seems to have about the same effect, and I’m certainly more entertained. You didn’t keep it real. You insulted him for not getting a flu shot. You falsely claimed the herd immunity justification. The flu shot is one of many vaccines that is not about herd immunity. It can’t be unless it is required, as nothing short of that will stop the disease. (Heck, that’s what this thread is about!) Only after you insulted him did the guy start being unreasonable. Like most insulted people, he became defensive. And when you become defensive, it becomes about winning and not about being right. So you got him to switch from being open to new ideas to being closed to them. All so you could “feel better.” ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/193 "2013-04-26T13:51:25Z")
How about you, BigT, do you feel better now that you given a good scolding? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/194 "2013-04-26T13:55:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Unfortunately, not a fucking chance in the world. > > Regards, > Shodan Oh yeah. An idiot named Cynthia Parker has been stalking us for weeks. She’s probably still at it as I write this. If I were in charge, any reference to whale to as an acceptable source would get you an immediate permanent banning from the net on the grounds that you are too fucking stupid to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/195 "2013-04-26T13:59:18Z")
Flamed by **BigT** on a post 4 days old. That’s like being ultra-correct, isn’t it? If I was tempted to feel bad earlier, I’m not now. Thanks! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/196 "2013-04-26T14:34:51Z")
Now that you’ve been exposed to a BigT scolding, you’ll be immune from feeling bad about any future scoldings he hands out. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/197 "2013-04-26T16:42:21Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > I don’t get it, I’m reading and reading and reading…but I just don’t. > > When I was growing up I was taught that the body builds an immunity to germs it is exposed to. Is there NO truth to this? Of course, which is why vaccinations work. You do not need to let your children catch potentially deadly diseases like mumps, polio and measles to let their immune systems develop. You can vaccinate against those things and let their immune systems practice on the other little bacteria and virii we’re all exposed to on a daily basis. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/198 "2013-04-26T17:47:17Z")
I love this chart on measles incidents in the US. For sheer scale of suffering avoidance the vaccination was a godsend. [![](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Measles_US_1944-2007_inset.png) ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Measles_US_1944-2007_inset.png) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/199 "2013-04-26T17:48:24Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > If I were in charge, any reference to whale to as an acceptable source would get you an immediate permanent banning from the net on the grounds that you are too fucking stupid to use it. Well, referencing whale.to _is_ against the law ([Scopie’s Law](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/06/14/the-nuttiness-that-is-whaleto/), that is): _“In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately..and gets you laughed out of the room.”_ > [@Gyrate](#): > > That’s not quite what that says, although it would be fun to ask an anti-vaxxer what they’d do if someone did invent an anti-autism vaccine. I accurately described the research as involving an anti-autism vaccine (it is intended to mitigate autism-related symptoms). I didn’t say it was a vaccine to _prevent_ autism.\* \*braces for seething denunciation from **Big T** over not “keeping it real”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/200 "2013-04-26T18:23:28Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Oh yeah. > > An idiot named Cynthia Parker has been stalking us for weeks. She’s probably still at it as I write this. If I were in charge, any reference to whale to as an acceptable source would get you an immediate permanent banning from the net on the grounds that you are too fucking stupid to use it. Oh jeepers, whale dot to. I can remember wasting a Friday afternoon browsing that site and giggling my fool head off. Somebody or other at the mothering dot com website linked to it, and it was like when I first encountered David Ickes. Entertainingly whacko. Good times, good times. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=11)