# Massive measles outbreak - thank you, Andrew Fucking Wakefield **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119 "2013-04-19T10:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/241 "2013-04-29T03:56:04Z")
My favorite curlcoat quote: > [@curlcoat](#): > > I guess it depends on what you believe. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/242 "2013-04-29T04:05:18Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > They do recommend a lot of boosters (3-4 shots spaced over a few months) of the 5 way because of parvovirus. The vaccine is not as effective in producing a good, long term protection with few boosters (as rabies is, for example), particularly in young pups and certain breeds. Since it is a nasty disease, they’d rather vaccinate than let a pup not get a good response and then fall victim to the disease. > > They are trying to research newer vaccines, but until more information is published, that is the reason they get so many of those boosters. Parvo sucks. There isn’t any reason to keep giving the 5 way if all they are trying to do is boost Parvo, unless they quit making the Parvo only vaccine? I haven’t had any puppies in awhile so I don’t know what is available out there now. But still, 3 - 4? If there was good maternal protection, why so many? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/243 "2013-04-29T04:17:08Z")
Vax Nazi? What’s the matter? Couldn’t remember the proper way to spell pharmashill? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/244 "2013-04-29T04:19:36Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Since you were responding to a comment specifically about human vaccination, it is relevant to educate you about human vaccination. You respond to that little bit but not to the fact that what you cited had nothing to do with what I’ve said? Yeah … done with you. I’m only here to kill time since my RA is giving me fits, but minds like yours are boring at best. > [@SpazCat](#): > > Hi, my name is Spaz and I have an autoimmune disease. You know what gave me this particular affliction? This little thing called “genetics.” The tendency towards autoimmune diseases runs in my family. You know what triggered my disease? Puberty. The change in hormones made my immune system decide that platelets were a tasty snack and it took me eight years and a _gasp_ FDA trial to get my immune system to the negotiating table and agree to a remission. (An FDA trial that ended up with the tested drug becoming one of the standard treatments. I had the best reaction in the stage 3 trial. _preens_) Hi, my name is Curl and I have autoimmune diseases as well, which were also caused by that little thing called genetics. If you were to read my cites, you will see that the rise in immune problems in children cannot be laid to genetics because : “With the rapid increase in autoimmune diseases, it clearly suggests that environmental factors are at play due to the significant increase in these diseases. Genes do not change in such a short period of time.” (That’s from the first of my cites) > [@](#): > > You know what didn’t have a goddamn thing to do with my autoimmune disease? Vaccinations. Same here. However, vaccinations are part of the environment so they might be something the researchers will look into. > [@](#): > > You do know that just because something happens in other mammals doesn’t mean it happens with humans, right? Obviously. OTOH, it could. Not that anyone here stopped long enough to consider it before losing what little minds they have. I really feel like they care more about being right than in the long term health of their children. But, once again, not my problem. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/245 "2013-04-29T04:29:24Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Vax Nazi? Ooooh! I wanna be a PDP-10 Nazi! SIEG HLLE! SIEG HLLE! Foonly, Foonly, Über Alles! ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/246 "2013-04-29T06:05:23Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Vax Nazi? What’s the matter? Couldn’t remember the proper way to spell pharmashill? > > :dubious: Don’t you see? Us Vax Nazis are trying to commit genocide! If **Curlcoat** won’t stand up for measles, who will? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/247 "2013-04-29T11:15:57Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Science begins with questions such as “why did this happen here, but not there?” What an idiotic non sequitur. This statement, whatever it’s supposed to mean, utterly fails to respond to any point I made. It also is irrelevant to anything to do with vaccines, since since is not “beginning” to work with vaccines in any way whatsoever. We’re waaaaay past beginning. It’s been heavily, thoroughly studied. Fail. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/248 "2013-04-29T11:24:01Z")
Inspired by **Alessan** ’s quip upthread [I made a thing](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/Gyrate/windshield.jpg), suitable for posting to Facebook, tweeting and tattooing on the foreheads of anti-vaxxers. It’s been a while since I’ve linked to Photobucket so let me know if that doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/249 "2013-04-29T12:52:46Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Inspired by **Alessan** ’s quip upthread [I made a thing](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/Gyrate/windshield.jpg), suitable for posting to Facebook, tweeting and tattooing on the foreheads of anti-vaxxers. > > It’s been a while since I’ve linked to Photobucket so let me know if that doesn’t work. Love it! ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/250 "2013-04-29T14:15:19Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Love it! Me too! I’ll be perfectly happy to answer questions as best I can on this issue. From sane people of course. Sane as in not comparing life saving measures to murdering people because they’re Jews or gay or mentally ill. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/251 "2013-04-29T14:25:49Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Hi, my name is Curl and I have autoimmune diseases as well, which were also caused by that little thing called genetics. If you were to read my cites, you will see that the rise in immune problems in children cannot be laid to genetics because : > “With the rapid increase in autoimmune diseases, it clearly suggests that environmental factors are at play due to the significant increase in these diseases. Genes do not change in such a short period of time.” (That’s from the first of my cites) How do you know that there’s been a rise in autoimmunity? How do you know it’s not just that we can diagnose it now? My great grandmother died a horrible death due to scleroderma. Now there’s a treatment for it. One hundred years ago I would have been dead and no one would know why. I would have just wasted away like a Victorian heroine. Perhaps that’s why there was so much wasting away back then? Part of medical research is finding out the true reason why stuff that’s always happened has happened. I’m not saying environmental factors aren’t playing a role in this. I’m just saying that we humans evolved into what we are a long time ago and our mutations have had quite a while to get cozy with us. We’re passing along a different set of genes now than we did hundreds of years ago because we’re surviving stuff that would have killed us back then. That’s all I have to say about that. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/252 "2013-04-29T14:36:30Z")
Here’s a wonderful resource. A huge list of pro-vaccine links from reputable sources: > **[Anti-vaccine Myths Exposed](http://www.dangeroustalk.net/a-team/Vaccines)** > > This is the A-Team, Hear them Roar! ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/253 "2013-04-29T17:13:18Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Inspired by **Alessan** ’s quip upthread [I made a thing](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/Gyrate/windshield.jpg), suitable for posting to Facebook, tweeting and tattooing on the foreheads of anti-vaxxers. > > It’s been a while since I’ve linked to Photobucket so let me know if that doesn’t work. Thanks - I tweeted it! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/254 "2013-04-29T21:31:01Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > What an idiotic non sequitur. This statement, whatever it’s supposed to mean, utterly fails to respond to any point I made. It also is irrelevant to anything to do with vaccines, since since is not “beginning” to work with vaccines in any way whatsoever. We’re waaaaay past beginning. It’s been heavily, thoroughly studied. Sigh. Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t make it idiotic. Also, just because something has been “heavily, thoroughly studied” doesn’t mean we have all the answers; for example Thalidomide, DDT, etc. Humans, even scientists, are not all knowing and can make mistakes. Which brings us back to my comment - "Science begins with questions such as “why did this happen here, but not there?”. If, say, women taking Thalidomide begin to have babies with birth defects, the question of ‘why is this happening here’ is the beginning of finding out. > [@SpazCat](#): > > How do you know that there’s been a rise in autoimmunity? How do you know it’s not just that we can diagnose it now? Did you read either of my cites? The first one is titled Autoimmune Disease Rates Increasing and both say something along the lines of “the prevalence of autoimmune disease is rising more quickly than one would expect by genetic mechanisms alone”. I don’t care what you want to believe, and I don’t care how many vaccinations anyone gives anyone else. All I have done is shown that there is a rise in autoimmune issues, and that it strongly appears to be environmentally related, and that there is a possibility vaccinations could be part of that. If you all are so paranoid that the slightest deviation from your One Right Way causes you to seek and destroy, you might want to review how firmly you actually believe in that Way. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/255 "2013-04-29T21:43:05Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Sigh. Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t make it idiotic. The irony here is a physical sensation. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/256 "2013-04-29T21:45:07Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > All I have done is shown that there is a rise in autoimmune issues, Ok. > [@](#): > > and that it strongly appears to be environmentally related, Ok. > [@](#): > > and that there is a possibility vaccinations could be part of that. That appears to be a conclusion almost entirely of your own devising. What makes you so sure that it cannot be due to genetics alone? When someone tells you that some illness was probably caused by a vaccine, why is that more trustworthy than someone of equivalent or better education telling you that it wasn’t? You do not appear to be evaluating the role of vaccinations in autoimmune diseases with an objective eye but rather have come to the conclusion that vaccines are to be avoided and are attempting to construct a post-hoc rationale for your decision. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/257 "2013-04-29T23:04:40Z")
It strikes me there’s also a correlation in the number of deaths attributed to heart attacks and immunizations over the last century. Ditto stomach cancer. Negative correlation with death certificates listing consumption. Could be a link. Or maybe (as other posters have oft repeated at this point), it just might damned well be that the general improvement in medical knowledge means we know more about disease and how to diagnose them properly now. And any correlation with immunizations is simply due due to the generally rising level of medical knowledge we have. It’s disappointing as hell how the same argument linking autism to vaccines is now being used in exactly the same way to explain auto-immune diseases. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/258 "2013-04-29T23:14:16Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Ok. Ok. That appears to be a conclusion almost entirely of your own devising. It’s an observation based on what happened with dogs, the corresponding rise in vaccinations given to children and the fact that vaccinations are “environment”. > [@](#): > > What makes you so sure that it cannot be due to genetics alone? Does nobody read? Is that what the problem is? I’ve already answered this more times than I know, so all you are going to get is the short version - scientists said so. > [@](#): > > When someone tells you that some illness was probably caused by a vaccine, why is that more trustworthy than someone of equivalent or better education telling you that it wasn’t? I have never said that. Never. That is something you made up because you are having a knee jerk reaction to anyone who doesn’t fall into lockstep with your One Right Way. > [@](#): > > You do not appear to be evaluating the role of vaccinations in autoimmune diseases with an objective eye but rather have come to the conclusion that vaccines are to be avoided and are attempting to construct a post-hoc rationale for your decision. Please, read. I personally only “avoid” the flu vaccine, and the reasons I gave did not include anything to do with autoimmune diseases. Jesus people. Making shit up and acting like complete idiots does nothing for your cause, whatever it may be. It’s obvious that all you all (I’m looking at you **Antibob** ) are doing is picking out key words and making up stories around them. Which makes you either stupid or disingenuous - your choice. If you don’t want to believe that there is research going on trying to find out why children have been experiencing a rise in autoimmune diseases at a greater rate than can be explained by genetics, fine, but don’t try to pretend it’s something I made up. You also might want to ask yourselves what I might have to gain by pointing any of this out. I have no, and never will have, any children. But of course, parents know everything, right? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/259 "2013-04-29T23:29:06Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Does nobody read? Is that what the problem is? I’ve already answered this more times than I know, so all you are going to get is the short version - scientists said so. But scientists also say that vaccines are not the cause of the problem here. So what I’d like to know is what your criteria are for determining which scientists are worth listening to and when because from where I sit, it looks arbitrary. > [@](#): > > Please, read. I personally only “avoid” the flu vaccine, and the reasons I gave did not include anything to do with autoimmune diseases. So why did you bring up autoimmune disease rates if not as part of the reason why you are skeptical of the recommended vaccination schedule? > [@](#): > > But of course, parents know everything, right? :smack: I’m not a parent. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/260 "2013-04-29T23:32:18Z")
**Curlcoat** , you can get down from your favorite hobbyhorse. None of this has anything to do with parents or non-parents or anything of the sort. Nothing has been said about parents knowing more than you do about vaccines. What has been said is that you know very little about them, and you seem to be using that very little to disparage them. For crying out loud, woman, you admitted yourself that you don’t know that much about vaccination in humans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=14)