# Massive measles outbreak - thank you, Andrew Fucking Wakefield **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119 "2013-04-19T10:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/261 "2013-04-30T01:56:12Z")
> [@thirdwarning](#): > > For crying out loud, woman, you admitted yourself that you don’t know that much about vaccination in humans. Or much of anything else, either. I always wondered how that “someone’s being _ **wrong on the internet** _” thing looks in real life. Then I ran across **curlcoat**. It’s a marvel to behold, truly it is. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/262 "2013-04-30T04:40:35Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > But scientists also say that vaccines are not the cause of the problem here. So what I’d like to know is what your criteria are for determining which scientists are worth listening to and when because from where I sit, it looks arbitrary. Unlike so many people, I haven’t made any decision as to who is “right”. I note that autoimmune problems are rising in children, that they are getting far more vaccinations, and that the two were linked in pets. So, if I had children to vaccinate, I would be interested in research being done on environmental reasons for the rise in autoimmune disease. > [@](#): > > So why did you bring up autoimmune disease rates if not as part of the reason why you are skeptical of the recommended vaccination schedule? I wasn’t aware that the annual flu shot was part of the recommended vaccination schedule for babies/young children. If it is, then I guess it would be included in my curiosity about the other vaccines for them, but it still wouldn’t factor in my decision to not get the shot myself. > [@](#): > > I’m not a parent. It should be obvious that I was speaking generally there. Anytime I have an opinion about children, parents rush to tell me I can’t know what I’m talking about because I’ve never given birth. And yes **thirdwarning** , I don’t know any more about human vaccines than I do dog vaccines, which is why I look to people trained in those things for information. Oh, and cite for where I’ve “disparaged” vaccinations? Hint - you won’t find it. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/263 "2013-04-30T05:10:08Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Now that you’ve been exposed to a BigT scolding, you’ll be immune from feeling bad about any future scoldings he hands out. Thank fucking god for that. Oh, wait, his white knighting is too stupid to trigger an immune response. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Oh yeah. > > An idiot named Cynthia Parker has been stalking us for weeks. She’s probably still at it as I write this. If I were in charge, any reference to whale to as an acceptable source would get you an immediate permanent banning from the net on the grounds that you are too fucking stupid to use it. I’m still waiting for the day we get our own subpage on whale.to. If that happens? I’m flying out to your neck of the woods IMMEDIATELY and we are going into the city to celebrate in the most expensive place we can find. > [@Derleth](#): > > You mean diseases _aren’t_ hazing rituals? Shut your mouth! > > That really does seem to be an aspect of the anti-vaccine idiocy in some people: _They_ went through it, so _their kids_ need to, because, if their kids can just skip it, why, that might mean their suffering was meaningless pain that they only had to go through because they were born at the wrong time. And that just won’t do! I call it the fetishization of suffering. Suffering from disease is somehow sacred, holy, a conferring of meaning and personhood. The fact that vaccines reduce suffering in addition to prevent disease is something that the anti-vaccine propagandists cannot stand. > [@colander](#): > > **curlcoat** is not a troll. she is just very, very stupid. Never has more truth been spoken in fewer words. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I’ve been insulted by **Curlcoat**. All I need now is for **Big T** to pit me and my life will be complete. He could scold you/us. Would that be the same thing? And being insulted by **curlcoat** is like being insulted by the yapping chihuahua next door - he’s getting a lot of something out of barking at me through the fence, but I have opposable thumbs and therefore win at life. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Vax Nazi? What’s the matter? Couldn’t remember the proper way to spell pharmashill? > > :dubious: Do you have anti-vax Bingo yet? I’m close. > [@SpazCat](#): > > I always wondered how that “someone’s being _ **wrong on the internet** _” thing looks in real life. Then I ran across **curlcoat**. It’s a marvel to behold, truly it is. See “very, very stupid” above. I love it when someone who’s anti-vaccine pulls out the “I’m not anti-vaccine, I just am pro-clean-vaccines/pro-better-vaccines/concerned about certain vaccines” because 9 times out of 10, it’s just an admission that they’re anti-vaccine. Plus, **curlcoat** gets to act in yet another installment of the long-running “How Many Ways Can **Curlcoat** Be a Self-Centered Fucking Idiot” show. It’s about as bad as the old Dio Show, and just as predictable. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/264 "2013-04-30T05:15:14Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I note that autoimmune problems are rising in children, that they are getting far more vaccinations _Are_ children in fact getting “far more vaccinations” nowadays? As far as I can tell from this history of the vaccine schedule, kids nowadays have maybe five or six more routine vaccinations than I did back in the sixties (mostly, they have hepatitis and influenza vaccines that I didn’t get, but on the other hand they don’t have to get the smallpox jab like I did!). > [@curlcoat](#): > > Anytime I have an opinion about children, parents rush to tell me I can’t know what I’m talking about because I’ve never given birth. That’s odd. Anytime _I_ have an opinion about children, parents seem willing to discuss it with me in an atmosphere of mutual courtesy and respect, and I’ve never given birth either. I wonder what’s causing the difference in reactions. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/265 "2013-04-30T05:38:52Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > _Are_ children in fact getting “far more vaccinations” nowadays? As far as I can tell from this history of the vaccine schedule, kids nowadays have maybe five or six more routine vaccinations than I did back in the sixties (mostly, they have hepatitis and influenza vaccines that I didn’t get, but on the other hand they don’t have to get the smallpox jab like I did!). Your link didn’t work but I think I got to where you intended. I had the three vaccinations - smallpox, DPT and polio. Compare that to the 10 listed for 2010. Also, the cite says that children in my era got a total of five shots, but nowdays they are getting 24. That seems to be far more. > [@](#): > > That’s odd. Anytime _I_ have an opinion about children, parents seem willing to discuss it with me in an atmosphere of mutual courtesy and respect, and I’ve never given birth either. I wonder what’s causing the difference in reactions. I don’t like children. I imagine that many people, at least subconsciously, think I must be out to harm them, or maybe they just want to pay me back for daring to not like kids. Plus, I’m not blinded by emotional attachments to kids, so I tend to talk about them in ways those who love kids don’t like. So, no matter what I might say, there are people here who will automatically dismiss me because I’m just too different for their comfort. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/266 "2013-04-30T05:47:41Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Your link didn’t work but I think I got to where you intended. Whoops! [Fixed link.](http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-schedule/history-of-vaccine-schedule.html) > [@curlcoat](#): > > I don’t like children. Oh. Well, I can kind of see how parents might be less sympathetic to your opinions about children, then. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/267 "2013-04-30T06:28:03Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Your link didn’t work but I think I got to where you intended. I had the three vaccinations - smallpox, DPT and polio. Compare that to the 10 listed for 2010. Also, the cite says that children in my era got a total of five shots, but nowdays they are getting 24. That seems to be far more. Vaccines are tested in concomitant trials which determine whether or not the vaccines can safely interact, vaccine technology has developed since you were a child and while someone who was vaccinated in 1980 received about 3000some antigens in their 4 or 5 shots, in 2010, that total was around 150 antigens, and finally, even if we quadrupled the number of vaccines a baby gets, we still wouldn’t come close to matching the number of germs a baby is exposed to entering its mother’s birth canal. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/268 "2013-04-30T10:07:36Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > there are people here who will automatically dismiss me because I’m just too different for their comfort. It pains me to see you pigeonhole yourself so. Why, there’s all manner of good reasons people automatically dismiss your posts! ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/269 "2013-04-30T10:41:50Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I don’t like children. I don’t either, but I recognize their right to exist since I was once one myself. Most of us weren’t privileged enough to spring fully formed from the head of Zeus like you did. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/270 "2013-04-30T10:50:13Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Sigh. Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t make it idiotic. Also, just because something has been “heavily, thoroughly studied” doesn’t mean we have all the answers; for example Thalidomide, DDT, etc. Humans, even scientists, are not all knowing and can make mistakes. Which brings us back to my comment - "Science begins with questions such as “why did this happen here, but not there?”. If, say, women taking Thalidomide begin to have babies with birth defects, the question of ‘why is this happening here’ is the beginning of finding out. Again, you are implying (though carefully without making any concrete statements that can be refuted), that there are “things” that need to be studied when it comes to vaccines. Unless you are willing to state exactly which things these are, all I can say is what I said before - research HAS been done. All this bullshit people are throwing around about the supposed dangers of vaccines HAVE ALREADY BEEN STUDIED, and found not to exist. The research that people keep claiming need to be done to satisfy them has already been finished, and they don’t like the result. So, again, your personal experience, vague memories, and general feelings of unease do not and cannot trump carefully collected and analyzed data from thousands and thousands of actual cases in the real world. Only a self-centered arrogant idiot would believe that they should. And with that, I’m done playing your game. Feel free to declare victory now while ignoring everything I’ve said. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/271 "2013-04-30T11:37:39Z")
I see we are now at the ‘too many vaccines these days’ stage. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/272 "2013-04-30T11:40:58Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > I see we are now at the ‘too many vaccines these days’ stage. \*Dear Mr President, There are too many vaccines these days. Please remove three. Yours, Abe Simpson P.S. I am not a crank.\* ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/273 "2013-04-30T12:46:23Z")
And I’m back to asking the same questions again. In case **Curlcoat** missed it I reiterate: Which particular vaccines do you dislike and which particular diseases would you want to bring back if we stop vaccinating? I do hope it’s tetanus. Because while tetanus is a horrifying disease with a terrifying mortality and morbidity rate that no rational human being would deliberately wish to have, at least the damned disease is one of the few vaccine preventable diseases that isn’t contagious. So you can be an anti-vax idiot but at least you won’t be a contagious, germ spreading, little baby threatening, pandemic starting, public health menace idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/274 "2013-04-30T12:59:13Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Sigh. Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t make it idiotic. Agreed. Repeatedly refusing to consider contrary data or excluding it because it contradicts one’s world view is what’s idiotic. For instance: by your own account, we know that your immunizations gave you far more antigenic stimulation than what kids today get through the expanded vaccine schedule (elimination of the smallpox vaccine accounts for much of that decrease). So if vaccines were responsible for autoimmune disease through “overstimulation of the immune system”, we should be seeing a _decrease_ in these disorders. > [@](#): > > If, say, women taking Thalidomide begin to have babies with birth defects, the question of ‘why is this happening here’ is the beginning of finding out. **curlcoat** appears unaware of this, but the reason the U.S. didn’t experience a calamitous surge of birth defects via thalidomide use in the 1960s is because an F.D.A. researcher (Frances Kelsey) blocked approval of the drug. That’s the same F.D.A. that **curlcoat** wants us to be suspicious of for unexplained reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/275 "2013-04-30T13:04:24Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > …while tetanus is a horrifying disease with a terrifying mortality and morbidity rate that no rational human being would deliberately wish to have, at least the damned disease is one of the few vaccine preventable diseases that isn’t contagious. Tetanus has its charms, though, one of which is opisthotonos (where painful muscular contractions arch the back into a bow, so that if you try to lie on your back only the back of your head and your heels touch the bed). Which reminds me, I probably should get a tetanus booster, seeing as it’s prime gardening season again, I’m always grubbing in the soil and whoever lived here before discarded various bits of hardware and ancient bottle caps to slice up the hands of unwary gardeners and introduce C. tetani spores. Or maybe I shouldn’t, seeing as Boosters are Bad in **curlcoat** -world. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/276 "2013-04-30T14:35:05Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Or maybe I shouldn’t, seeing as Boosters are Bad in **curlcoat** -world. Had mine last Wednesday, but I doubt I have much regard in **curlcoat** s book (nor her in mine). You’ll probably get anti-pertussis mixed in for free. Damned anti-vaxxers have led to a comeback in whopping cough. In other vaccination news, the experimental HIV vaccine has been [declared ineffective](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-25/u-s-halts-largest-hiv-vaccine-trial-on-treatment-failure.html), and they’re withdrawing it from trials. It’s almost like doctors and scientists test treatments for effectiveness or something instead of injecting us with weird chemicals willy-nilly. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/277 "2013-04-30T15:46:54Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > In other vaccination news, the experimental HIV vaccine has been [declared ineffective](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-25/u-s-halts-largest-hiv-vaccine-trial-on-treatment-failure.html), and they’re withdrawing it from trials. It’s almost like doctors and scientists test treatments for effectiveness or something instead of injecting us with weird chemicals willy-nilly. Dangit! That was the one that could hide the mind control drugs so well! Back to the NWO drawing board. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/278 "2013-04-30T18:42:44Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Tetanus has its charms, though, one of which is opisthotonos (where painful muscular contractions arch the back into a bow, so that if you try to lie on your back only the back of your head and your heels touch the bed). > > Which reminds me, I probably should get a tetanus booster, seeing as it’s prime gardening season again, I’m always grubbing in the soil and whoever lived here before discarded various bits of hardware and ancient bottle caps to slice up the hands of unwary gardeners and introduce C. tetani spores. Or maybe I shouldn’t, seeing as Boosters are Bad in **curlcoat** -world. The province of Alberta did a big tetanus booster drive a couple of years ago, so I’m all updated. I’m glad they did that; I would have never thought of it on my own, and I’m digging in the dirt all the time, too. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/279 "2013-04-30T18:53:03Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Dangit! That was the one that could hide the mind control drugs so well! Back to the NWO drawing board. Don’t worry. I’m not really supposed to tell you this, but we in the scientific community conspiracy were told that it’s just a smokescreen. They’re pretending to withdraw it, but it will actually be included in next year’s flu shots to help prepare the sheeple for the 2016 elections. It just occurred to me - if science really were capable of such a massive and powerful conspiracy, wouldn’t government funding for research be much MUCH larger than it is? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/280 "2013-04-30T18:59:45Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > It just occurred to me - if science really were capable of such a massive and powerful conspiracy, wouldn’t government funding for research be much MUCH larger than it is? D’oh! Rule 3 of Secret Scientists Club: You don’t talk about the hidden science slush fund. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=15)