# Massive measles outbreak - thank you, Andrew Fucking Wakefield **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119 "2013-04-19T10:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/301 "2013-05-02T04:35:22Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > You SAID that one of your concerns was that no one has addressed the safety of the number of shots given at the same time and everyone explained that the too many vaccines argument has been severely debunked. You complained that you’d said nothing of the sort and I am attempting to explain to you the concept of synonymity. I’m on the road and in the boondocks where I have to park in a lot to get wifi - this place doesn’t even have a McD’s. What you just said makes no sense to me in light of what I know I’ve said, so someplace it’s gone off the rails. Here is my position in a nutshell: It has been proven that dogs given a bunch of vaccinations at once and/or boosted too frequently are at risk for ending up with a problem with their autoimmune system in later life. I have noticed that those sorts of diseases seem to be going up in children, and a little looking showed that researchers say the same thing. They also state it isn’t genetic because the rate is climbing too quickly for that. So, I wonder if it isn’t possible that children (mammals) are having the same issues that dogs (mammals) are, since they are getting far more vaccinations than 40 or so years ago. That’s it. I truly believe that if some folks weren’t so paranoid, there wouldn’t be any kerfluffle over this. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/302 "2013-05-02T04:55:08Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Here is my position in a nutshell: > > **It has been proven that dogs given a bunch of vaccinations at once and/or boosted too frequently are at risk for ending up with a problem with their autoimmune system in later life.** > > I have noticed that those sorts of diseases seem to be going up in children, and a little looking showed that researchers say the same thing. They also state it isn’t genetic because the rate is climbing too quickly for that. > > So, I wonder if it isn’t possible that children (mammals) are having the same issues that dogs (mammals) are, since they are getting far more vaccinations than 40 or so years ago. > > That’s it. I truly believe that if some folks weren’t so paranoid, there wouldn’t be any kerfluffle over this. Just spare me the task of searching through every post of this thread. Cite for the bolded passage above please? > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > And I’m back to asking the same questions again. In case **Curlcoat** missed it I reiterate: Which particular vaccines do you dislike and which particular diseases would you want to bring back if we stop vaccinating? > > I do hope it’s tetanus. Because while tetanus is a horrifying disease with a terrifying mortality and morbidity rate that no rational human being would deliberately wish to have, at least the damned disease is one of the few vaccine preventable diseases that isn’t contagious. > > So you can be an anti-vax idiot but at least you won’t be a contagious, germ spreading, little baby threatening, pandemic starting, public health menace idiot. And an answer to this please. If your suspicions above are correct, which exact diseases would you have us NOT vaccinate against? How many vaccinations are safe, in your mind? How sure are you that the effects of not vaccinating against your nominated diseases is less than the purported risks of “too many vaccinations”? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/303 "2013-05-02T05:20:12Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > So, I wonder if it isn’t possible that children (mammals) are having the same issues that dogs (mammals) are, since they are getting far more vaccinations than 40 or so years ago. Except that, AFAICT from previous posters’ explanations, you seem to be wrong about children “getting far more vaccinations than 40 or so years ago” in any autoimmunilogically (so to speak) meaningful sense of the term “more vaccinations”. That is, kids today may be getting jabbed with a vaccination needle more times than you and I did in our childhood, but they’re getting far less total antigenic stimulation from those jabs than you and I did. So the current vaccine schedule appears to be actually _safer_ for kids’ autoimmune systems than it was back in our day. In other words, AFAICT, worrying about today’s larger number of jabs in the routine immunization schedule for children is a bit like worrying that somebody’s getting shot with ten BB pellets instead of two cannonballs. Being concerned about the total _number_ of the hits, while ignoring differences in the _damage_ each hit can do, is kind of missing the point. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/304 "2013-05-02T12:33:00Z")
Instead of repeating that dogs are having “issues” with autoimmune diseases supposedly tied to vaccines, could we see any actual evidence that such disorders are increasing in dogs or other pets and that incidence has been tied to immunization? Meantime, [here’s a review article](http://image.thelancet.com/extras/02art9340web.pdf) about human autoimmunity, autoimmune disorders and vaccination that should be helpful. It notes that incidence of the few autoimmune disorders linked to vaccination (i.e. thrombocytopenic purpura and Guillain-Barre syndrome) is extremely low, and that one has a far greater chance of developing autoimmune problems (or having an existing autoimmune condition worsened) when infected by the diseases that vaccines prevent. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/305 "2013-05-02T16:40:05Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Just spare me the task of searching through every post of this thread. Cite for the bolded passage above please? And also this: > [@curlcoat](#): > > I have noticed that those sorts of diseases seem to be going up in children, and a little looking showed that researchers say the same thing. And this: > [@](#): > > They also state it isn’t genetic because the rate is climbing too quickly for that. We can’t evaluate your claim(s) - and thank you for finally making a claim that can be looked at! - without looking at the data. I’m a scientist. I’ll be happy to take a look at the actual data, if it can be located. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/306 "2013-05-02T16:45:01Z")
I’m more interested in the increasing incidence of autism in dogs. ANSWER THAT ONE, PHARMASHILLS!!!111!!! ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/307 "2013-05-02T16:54:35Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m more interested in the increasing incidence of autism in dogs. You can tell cuz they’re really good at math. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/308 "2013-05-02T17:53:40Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m more interested in the increasing incidence of autism in dogs. > > ANSWER THAT ONE, PHARMASHILLS!!!111!!! Wakefield did a study on autism in monkeys. I kid you not. > [@](#): > > [Monkey business in autism research, part II | Science-Based Medicine](http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/monkey-business-in-autism-research-part-ii/) > > Wakefield’s study is entitled Delayed Acquisition of Neonatal Reflexes in newborn Primates receiving A Thimerosal-containing Hepatitis B Vaccine: Influence of gestational age and Birth weight. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/309 "2013-05-02T18:08:28Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > A lot of us older folks have stories like that (my grandparents almost buried one child because of whooping cough). I don’t know if young adults have enough stories like that to have a good idea of what life before vaccines was like. My grandfather had his first open heart surgery at around age 35ish due to childhood whooping cough, which scarred a large portion of his heart. He had several heart surgeries between 35 and 50, when he died of complications during another heart surgery. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/310 "2013-05-02T20:49:25Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Instead of repeating that dogs are having “issues” with autoimmune diseases supposedly tied to vaccines, could we see any actual evidence that such disorders are increasing in dogs or other pets and that incidence has been tied to immunization? > [@Smeghead](#): > > We can’t evaluate your claim(s) - and thank you for finally making a claim that can be looked at! - without looking at the data. I’m a scientist. I’ll be happy to take a look at the actual data, if it can be located. Curlcoat says that she bases her research off of a Dr. Jean Dodds, who believes in using fewer vaccinations on animals (according to the websites). > [@curlcoat](#): > > For myself, it’s just the flu shot - at my age, vaccinations are not much of an issue. For the dogs, I do not give leptospirosis, corona, lyme or kennel cough at all, and I boost the others far less frequently than most vets want it done - the only one done on a schedule is rabies because the city requires it every two years, which is ridiculous. The last shots the cat had was when she was a kitten and she is now over 13. > > I’m quite sure you are aware that I have done next to zero research on human vaccinations, since it is a non-issue for me. \*\* For the animals, it was mostly the work of Dr Jean Dodds that convinced me that they were being over-vaccinated.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/311 "2013-05-02T21:01:08Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Meantime, [here’s a review article](http://image.thelancet.com/extras/02art9340web.pdf) about human autoimmunity, autoimmune disorders and vaccination that should be helpful. It notes that incidence of the few autoimmune disorders linked to vaccination (i.e. thrombocytopenic purpura and Guillain-Barre syndrome) is extremely low, and that one has a far greater chance of developing autoimmune problems (or having an existing autoimmune condition worsened) when infected by the diseases that vaccines prevent. Heh. One of those is the disease I have. Still wasn’t caused by vaccines. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/312 "2013-05-02T21:11:44Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Curlcoat says that she bases her research off of a Dr. Jean Dodds, who believes in using fewer vaccinations on animals (according to the websites). Very well. Where is this Dr. Dodd’s data published? Curlcoat says this is all a result of research she has done, so it shouldn’t be hard for her to provide links. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/313 "2013-05-02T21:40:21Z")
Dr. Jean Dodds in veterinary medicine has as much power as Wakefield does in medicine (and perhaps less). It is breeders who seem more interested in hear and reading (and sometimes misinterpreting/misquoting) her information. Her early work seemed to have focused on endocrinology and thyroid diseases in dogs, and is apparently solid research. Her more current endeavors are questionable. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/314 "2013-05-02T21:43:08Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Dr. Jean Dodds in veterinary medicine has as much power as Wakefield does in medicine (and perhaps less). It is breeders who seem more interested in hear and reading (and sometimes misinterpreting/misquoting) her information. Her early work seemed to have focused on endocrinology and thyroid diseases in dogs, and is apparently solid research. Her more current endeavors are questionable. How typical. A person with a pre-existing opinion manages to find questionable research to support the opinion. Not to mention that vaccination issues with dogs may or may not have any relationship at all to vaccination with humans, especially given (as has been stated previously) that the total antigenic load of the current vaccination schedule is approximately 1/10 of the total antigenic load from a generation ago. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/315 "2013-05-02T22:01:25Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > How typical. A person with a pre-existing opinion manages to find questionable research to support the opinion. Not to mention that vaccination issues with dogs may or may not have any relationship at all to vaccination with humans, especially given (as has been stated previously) that the total antigenic load of the current vaccination schedule is approximately 1/10 of the total antigenic load from a generation ago. I want to be clear on a few things, many of which I’ve addressed before. I’ve addressed immunology before to curlcoat, and I’m tired of going through that again with her. But in the interest, in the veterinary side: 1. None of the vaccines she skimps on are core vaccines. They are all limited by age, region, climate, and even the dog’s lifestyle. 2. The veterinary schools have, for years, advocated less frequent boosters. That there are older practitioners that still do annuals, yes, but it is not because the forerunners (the schools) are telling them to do that. AAHA (the main veterinary hospital association) and AVMA both support the changes. 3. Dr. Jean Dodd is better known for her early studies, especially the coagulopathies in small animals and some of her work with thyroid studies. Her more recent endeavors in both thyroid diseae and immunology (vaccine) are not considered valid by veterinary medicine. 4. **In cats** , but not in dogs, and not in humans as far as I know, constant vaccination DID lead to fibrosarcomas. This part of the impetus on investigating the efficacy of vaccines and developing and testing better vaccines, and extending the time between vaccines. BTW, cats also have a lot of other diseases and conditions not found so far in other animals. 5. Which reminds me, dogs are not people. While it is nice when there are animal models for human diseases, the default shouldn’t be “this happen in species X, therefore it must happen in humans too”. No, the default should be “let’s study if what happens in species X can also occur (and by the same mechanism) in humans”. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/316 "2013-05-02T22:04:51Z")
Also, she asked why so many boosters? Because that is what the studies found to be the most effective. A complete series of puppy shots with less frequent boosters later in life led to better protection. Again, those are serious diseases, and skimping on the vaccines means compromising immunity at a time where the animal is most vulnerable. Finally, the vaccine studies are done in cute little beagle puppies. No giant behemoths mastiffs. So the dosages are based off of what was found on those puppies. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/317 "2013-05-03T01:30:15Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Which reminds me, dogs are not people. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/318 "2013-05-04T01:54:14Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Just spare me the task of searching through every post of this thread. Cite for the bolded passage above please? It’s been so long that it’s taking a bit of time to Google up a cite. [Here](http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/vaccinePredisposed.html) is a start. > [@](#): > > And an answer to this please. If your suspicions above are correct, which exact diseases would you have us NOT vaccinate against? How many vaccinations are safe, in your mind? How sure are you that the effects of not vaccinating against your nominated diseases is less than the purported risks of “too many vaccinations”? I wonder how many times I’ll have to answer this stupid question. As I’ve said before, since I have no kids to vaccinate, I haven’t looked into it. However, when it came out that multiple disease shots weren’t a good idea in dogs, the answer was to space them out, as well as not boost so often. > [@Kimstu](#): > > In other words, AFAICT, worrying about today’s larger number of jabs in the routine immunization schedule for children is a bit like worrying that somebody’s getting shot with ten BB pellets instead of two cannonballs. Being concerned about the total _number_ of the hits, while ignoring differences in the _damage_ each hit can do, is kind of missing the point. I don’t know because I don’t know what creates the autoimmune problems down the road. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Instead of repeating that dogs are having “issues” with autoimmune diseases supposedly tied to vaccines, could we see any actual evidence that such disorders are increasing in dogs or other pets and that incidence has been tied to immunization? I don’t think such disorders are increasing any more since far fewer dogs are getting the number of vaccinations that they used to. > [@](#): > > Meantime, [here’s a review article](http://image.thelancet.com/extras/02art9340web.pdf) about human autoimmunity, autoimmune disorders and vaccination that should be helpful. It notes that incidence of the few autoimmune disorders linked to vaccination (i.e. thrombocytopenic purpura and Guillain-Barre syndrome) is extremely low, and that one has a far greater chance of developing autoimmune problems (or having an existing autoimmune condition worsened) when infected by the diseases that vaccines prevent. It also said “How can one demonstrate or exclude that a vaccine caused an autoimmune disease? Only epidemiological studies or clinical trials with an extremely large sample size can allow for a consistent assessment of the relative risk of vaccine-related increased incidence. Studies with such large sample sizes are complex, difficult to do, and costly, which limit their availability” Most of it I didn’t understand, but the gist of it was that they realize that vaccinations could trigger problems in people susceptible to an autoimmune disease, but to study it would be as above. > [@Smeghead](#): > > And also this: > > And this: > > We can’t evaluate your claim(s) - and thank you for finally making a claim that can be looked at! - without looking at the data. I’m a scientist. I’ll be happy to take a look at the actual data, if it can be located. You didn’t look at my previous cites on that subject? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/319 "2013-05-04T02:11:27Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Dr. Jean Dodds in veterinary medicine has as much power as Wakefield does in medicine (and perhaps less). Really? That’s extremely sad but not really surprising - after all, vets still tend to push Science Diet. OTOH, you say that many/most vets have backed off of boosting every year - what caused that if not the work of Dr Dodds? > [@Kolga](#): > > How typical. A person with a pre-existing opinion manages to find questionable research to support the opinion. No, I had no pre-existing opinion on the subject. I gave annual boosters to all of my animals for decades and when the first reports came out about the dangers, I definitely wasn’t one of the first to jump to the new protocols. It is interesting that you assume that simply because I believe in what Dr Dodds says must mean I had a pre-existing opinion tho. :dubious: > [@](#): > > Not to mention that vaccination issues with dogs may or may not have any relationship at all to vaccination with humans, Quite right. All I did was mention it and the paranoid people went nuts. > [@KarlGrenze](#): > > 1. The veterinary schools have, for years, advocated less frequent boosters. That there are older practitioners that still do annuals, yes, but it is not because the forerunners (the schools) are telling them to do that. AAHA (the main veterinary hospital association) and AVMA both support the changes. > > 2. Dr. Jean Dodd is better known for her early studies, especially the coagulopathies in small animals and some of her work with thyroid studies. Her more recent endeavors in both thyroid diseae and immunology (vaccine) are not considered valid by veterinary medicine. How do these two go together? Dr Dodds says to quit vaccinating so much and the AAHA and AVMA say the same thing afterwards but it isn’t because of Dr Dodds? > [@](#): > > 1. Which reminds me, dogs are not people. While it is nice when there are animal models for human diseases, the default shouldn’t be “this happen in species X, therefore it must happen in humans too”. No, the default should be “let’s study if what happens in species X can also occur (and by the same mechanism) in humans”. And yet, when I suggest such a thing, I am accused of being anti-vax. I have never said that because it happens in dogs, it must happen in humans, I merely said “look this happened, do you think it has any bearing on humans?” And, that’s it for now. Not only am I miles from any internet connection, the SDMB seems to be having issues today. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/320 "2013-05-04T03:11:43Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Really? That’s extremely sad but not really surprising - after all, vets still tend to push Science Diet. OTOH, you say that many/most vets have backed off of boosting every year - what caused that if not the work of Dr Dodds? It is not her. She is not an immunologist or virologist. But she did not contribute to any of the published, peer-reviewed studies, nor participated in the vaccination task forces from AVMA, AAFP, AAHA, and others that set up the current vaccination guidelines. If anything, Dr. Schultz, who seems to have been doing immunology and vaccination research since the late 70s, was one of the pioneers. You’re overestimating Dodd and underestimating the rest of the profession, the veterinarians, and their organizations. Dr. Dodds is not the co-author of any of the studies, Dr. Dodds is not the only veterinarian researching immunity in dogs (and cats!), and Dr. Dodds’s schedules/recommendations (or the interpretations of those by other people) are not even in complete agreement with the established guidelines and the research published. I’ll also point out that testing for titers (which Dodds advocates) ignores a whole branch of the immune system. Titers only measure soluble antibodies, the humoral part of the adaptive immune system. They ignore the cell-mediated immunity pat of the adaptive immune system. Hint: For many diseases, cell-mediated immunity is more important than humoral immunity. > [@](#): > > And yet, when I suggest such a thing, I am accused of being anti-vax. I have never said that because it happens in dogs, it must happen in humans, I merely said “look this happened, do you think it has any bearing on humans?” Because the slant it is given, at least on-line, appears to be an already biased position against the vaccines. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=17)