# Massive measles outbreak - thank you, Andrew Fucking Wakefield **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119 "2013-04-19T10:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/21 "2013-04-19T15:52:55Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Really, he should be serving a life sentence. Fuck that. Each and every week, he should be made to be the personal servant of an unvaccinated child who contracted a preventable disease. He should be made to do all the menial chores and tasks requested dressed in a French maid outfit (if that’s the kid’s “thing”) and otherwise be at the beck and call of the kids and families he’s harmed due to his greedy, irresponsible, and unethical behavior. And whenever there is another outbreak of unvaccinated stupidity, he should be made to go to the front lines and help treat the patients wearing a giant “Your illness is my fault. I’m a waste of human potential. I’m what happens when greed overcomes morals. Kick me.” sandwich board. And people should be allowed to kick him (in the dick or elsewhere) whenever they please. But I guess prison would suffice. ---
**Author:** ![Jaymosch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaymosch/32/2820_2.png) [@Jaymosch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaymosch)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/22 "2013-04-19T16:08:08Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > There’s a huge demonization of people with autism by many anti-vaxxers that is utterly revolting. Really? I’ve never heard or seen such behavior and my previous job entailed dealing with many children on the spectrum (including ones with anti-vacc parents) I’ve never gotten an inkling of such feelings. If anything it’s the opposite, look up “Indigo Children.” > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Jenny McCarthy actually said her son had no soul. I can’t believe you’re making me defend Jenny fucking McCarthy, but she said “I remember going, '[Oh, God, I hope he’s right.’ And soon thereafter – boom – the soul’s gone from his eyes.](http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2010/05/frontline-vaccines-jenny-mccarthy-boom-the-souls-gone-from-his-eyes.html)” which is not even remotely near the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/23 "2013-04-19T16:29:44Z")
> [@Jaymosch](#): > > Really? I’ve never heard or seen such behavior and my previous job entailed dealing with many children on the spectrum (including ones with anti-vacc parents) I’ve never gotten an inkling of such feelings. If anything it’s the opposite, look up “Indigo Children.” I’ve been following this issue for years. Many anti-vaxxers horribly demonize their autistic children. They use words like broken and damaged. Google “autism speaks does not speak for me” to see some examples. An eloquent post by the blogger autismum sums it up: > [@](#): > > [MMR and Autism – Our Story – Autismum](http://autismum.com/2013/04/10/mmr-and-autism-our-story/) > > Now, autistic children were labelled as poisoned, full of toxins that had to be removed. The very existence of autistic adults was being denied. Parents described their children, the once perfect repositories of their hopes and dreams, as “soul-less” and like “zombies.” Empty children, dead behind the eyes, a financial and emotional impediment to the rest of their family’s happiness and well being. > [@](#): > > I can’t believe you’re making me defend Jenny fucking McCarthy, but she said “I remember going, '[Oh, God, I hope he’s right.’ And soon thereafter – boom – the soul’s gone from his eyes.](http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2010/05/frontline-vaccines-jenny-mccarthy-boom-the-souls-gone-from-his-eyes.html)” which is not even remotely near the same thing. She said her son’s soul was gone. I stand by my statement: that’s a disgusting thing to say about anyone let alone your own innocent child. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/24 "2013-04-19T16:35:40Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > \ apart from your woollyheaded parental derpitude\ I love your turn of phrase. 🙂 [Jenny McCarthy’s updated body count.](http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html) ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/25 "2013-04-19T16:39:41Z")
My daughter is autistic. I’m part of the scientific establishment. This stuff pisses me off beyond all reasonable bounds. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/26 "2013-04-19T17:00:28Z")
> [@USCDiver](#): > > While not quite on that scale, there is an outbreak ongoing in North Carolina related to an unvaccinated family one of whom travelled to India and brought it home. Taking unvaccinated children on world travels should be considered child abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Jaymosch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaymosch/32/2820_2.png) [@Jaymosch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaymosch)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/27 "2013-04-19T17:07:06Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I’ve been following this issue for years. Many anti-vaxxers horribly demonize their autistic children. They use words like broken and damaged. Google “autism speaks does not speak for me” to see some examples. > > An eloquent post by the blogger autismum sums it up: > > She said her son’s soul was gone. I stand by my statement: that’s a disgusting thing to say about anyone let alone your own innocent child. She did not say her son’s soul was gone. Can you fucking read? I’ve never, ever thought I’d be defending anti-vaccers. Saying someone is broken or damaged by something is not dehumanizing them at all. I have only been able to find people with (or claiming) autism complaining about the organization with regard to your “autism speaks does not speak to me” claim, so I’m not buying that either. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/28 "2013-04-19T17:45:04Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: If you ever happen to meet Andrew Wakefield, you kick him in the dick. Supposedly he lives near Austin, and if I happen to run across him when visiting my in-laws, I fully intend to beat him senseless. That being said, sometimes I wonder if this anti-vaccination stuff is some sort of modern-day Darwinian pressure. As in, maybe this will thin out the herd of the credulous and stupid a bit, and be an anti-Idiocracy type of evolutionary pressure. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/29 "2013-04-19T17:50:25Z")
> [@Jaymosch](#): > > She did not say her son’s soul was gone. Can you fucking read? > > I’ve never, ever thought I’d be defending anti-vaccers. Saying someone is broken or damaged by something is not dehumanizing them at all. > > I have only been able to find people with (or claiming) autism complaining about the organization with regard to your “autism speaks does not speak to me” claim, so I’m not buying that either. What the fuck is your problem? McCarthy and her ilk often use horribly demeaning and dehumanizing language to describe their children. It is vile. I would never describe my daughters as broken if they had autism. It’s a repulsive way to speak about human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Tequila\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@Tequila\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tequila_Party)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/30 "2013-04-19T18:32:23Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > What the fuck is your problem? McCarthy and her ilk often use horribly demeaning and dehumanizing language to describe their children. It is vile. I would never describe my daughters as broken if they had autism. It’s a repulsive way to speak about human beings. I’m still new around here, but didn’t I read in some thread that you’d published a book on this subject? Or am I misremembering and it’s someone else? ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/31 "2013-04-19T18:39:05Z")
Lavender: calm the fuck down. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/32 "2013-04-19T18:40:38Z")
> [@Jaymosch](#): > > Really? I’ve never heard or seen such behavior and my previous job entailed dealing with many children on the spectrum (including ones with anti-vacc parents) I’ve never gotten an inkling of such feelings. If anything it’s the opposite, look up “Indigo Children.” > > I can’t believe you’re making me defend Jenny fucking McCarthy, but she said “I remember going, '[Oh, God, I hope he’s right.’ And soon thereafter – boom – the soul’s gone from his eyes.](http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2010/05/frontline-vaccines-jenny-mccarthy-boom-the-souls-gone-from-his-eyes.html)” which is not even remotely near the same thing. It is exactly the same thing. My son has no soul vs. my son’s soul has gone. Since she’s talking about the son she has now, it’s the same thing. Fwiw my daughter is autistic and we’ve actually had conversations about souls. She does, however, often fail to maintain expected eye contact and sometimes looks like she’s not really in there at all. Perhaps she’s Data without the knowledge chips. 😃 Actually, she’d love it if that were true. This is not meant to imply that you’re on the side of the anti-vaxers, FTR. More arguing against the idea. My daughter was also exhibiting obvious signs way before her second MMR jab, which some were saying was the problem. In hindsight, she even demonstrated signs during jabs by never noticing them at all. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/33 "2013-04-19T18:44:40Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > It is exactly the same thing. My son has no soul vs. my son’s soul has gone. No, it’s not. “My son has no soul” vs “My son looks like he has no soul”. “All the energy’s gone out of him”. “He’s got the devil in him” “She’s a little princess”. Obviously figurative and not literal descriptions. ETA: And damnit! I didn’t want to even partially defend any of these anti-vaxxer nutjobs! ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/34 "2013-04-19T19:01:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No. But people who refuse to vaccinate their kids aren’t doing it because they have a strong grasp of immunology; quite the opposite. Actually, I’ve traveled in circles with strong anti-vax overlap, and it’s even worse. Many of them are really quite happy to ride on the backs of mainstream children and take advantage of herd immunity, all the while believing that vaccinations are dangerous and cause horrible side effects. They won’t phrase it that way, but they do point to the low incidence of infection as a reason why the risk of vaccination outweighs the risk of going unvaccinated. To me that says, “I want to protect my kid from autism, but yours doesn’t matter.” I have actually had one person argue that it’s better to allow the human race to somehow evolve out of susceptibility to VPDs. I went back and forth for a while, but she didn’t seem to grasp that she was arguing that \*babies dying of VPDs was a good thing \*that we should encourage. Anti-vaxers are, in my experience, very self-centered and concerned only with controlling every variable of life so their children turn out perfect. Must not vaccinate, expose to food dyes, or allow the Pink Floyd meat-grinder of public education to contaminate the special snowflakes! As for demonizing autistic children, as much as I hate Jenny, I’d say her statement was a metaphor about her son losing that emotional expression and connection through eye contact that neurotypical people have. And if a UPS truck crushed my child’s legs, I could certainly refer to them as “broken” or “damaged” without dehumanizing them, right? I get that there may be an element that acts like the fucking world is over if you have autism - you might as well go kill yourself. But being sensitized to that may make you see the extreme attitude in relatively innocent statements from people who believe an evil corporation injured their kids. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/35 "2013-04-19T19:11:26Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > \They won’t phrase it that way, but they do point to the low incidence of infection as a reason why the risk of vaccination outweighs the risk of going unvaccinated. To me that says, “I want to protect my kid from autism, but yours doesn’t matter.”\ That’s exactly what their attitude seems like to me. Also, we _had_ a low incidence of infection; if people are getting these diseases again, and people have not been vaccinated against them, we can wave those low incidences of infection good-bye. That brought something else to mind; does anyone know someone who was anti-vaxx, had their kid come down with one of these preventable diseases, and wished to hell that they had vaccinated after all? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/36 "2013-04-19T19:12:44Z")
Also, would it be okay with everyone if we left the Jenny McCarthy’s son’s soul discussion alone? I think we can all agree that she’s a complete and utter idiot. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AnthonyElite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/37 "2013-04-19T19:17:47Z")
I don’t get it, I’m reading and reading and reading…but I just don’t. When I was growing up I was taught that the body builds an immunity to germs it is exposed to. Is there NO truth to this? > **[Early Exposure to Germs Could Help Build Immunity - Redorbit](https://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1112500302/early-exposure-to-germs-could-help-build-immunity/)** > > Childhood exposure to bacteria and other germs may help build immunity to various microbes later on in life, researchers from Brigham and Women's Hospital (BWH) claim in a new study. ETA: Link, which links to research. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/38 "2013-04-19T19:18:38Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The really nasty thing is that Wakefield did it for money. He pushed his bogus claims so that he could profit from an “alternative” vaccine. He did not even believe his own bullshit - he was simply subjecting people to disease so that he could make some cash. I think he probably did (and does) believe vaccines (and in particular the MMR) cause autism. At the same time he was entirely willing to cut corners and fabricate research to support his beliefs and make gobs of money at the same time. Note: while the “alternative” measles vaccine he was hoping to springboard at the expense of the MMR never got off the ground and the hundreds of millions he was hoping to get from molecular virus testing apparently did not materialize, he did garner about $750,000 from the lawyers’ group hoping for profitable MMR lawsuits, obtained various speaking engagements and support from the credulous for his legal fund (which accomplished one failed punitive lawsuit). Wakefield’s latest stunt (I think he’s actually enjoying being back in the news again) is to call for a “televised public debate” about the MMR vaccine and his beliefs. Seeing as how our own **LavenderBlue** is a pro-vaccine doper with experience debating an antivaxer in public, maybe she can take Wakers up on his challenge (I’d contribute towards her airfare and lodging). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/39 "2013-04-19T19:24:06Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > I don’t get it, I’m reading and reading and reading…but I just don’t. > > When I was growing up I was taught that the body builds an immunity to germs it is exposed to. Is there NO truth to this? > > [http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1112500302/early-exposure-to-germs-could-help-build-immunity/](http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1112500302/early-exposure-to-germs-could-help-build-immunity/) > > ETA: Link, which links to research. Yes, that is true, but I’m not sure what your point is. The children who survive infection with vaccine-preventable diseases (VPD) develop immunity. See chicken pox before vaccines were available. The idea with vaccinations is to induce the same immunity without subjecting the patients to the complications of the actual infection. Is this not common knowledge? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/40 "2013-04-19T19:30:16Z")
Also, there are germs, and there are GERMS. No one is trying to develop immunity to something like anthrax by exposure because you’d just be dead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=3)