# Massive measles outbreak - thank you, Andrew Fucking Wakefield **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119 "2013-04-19T10:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/521 "2013-05-23T13:48:18Z")
As for her idiot arguments on vaccine safety allow me to bring up the link I brought up before. The one by my esteemed colleague **Kolga** that answers **curlcoat** ’s fucking stupid questions. The same stupid fucking questions that she’s asked a million times and had the fucking answers handed to her over and over and over and over and over and over again. In case you missed it, here it is again. A beautifully written piece that deserves widespread attention. > [@](#): > > [The one study to rule them all–the vaccine denier's dream](http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/study-rule-all-the-vaccine-deniers-dream/) > > The One Study, or why the anti-vaccine movement doesn’t really understand science > > Multiple studies in multiple countries using multiple research models and multiple research groups, with multiple funding sources, have found no link between vaccines and autism. This is also true for a link between vaccines and ADHD, asthma, diabetes, autoimmune disorders, and the various other conditions that anti-vaccine propagandists attempt to link to vaccinations. > > Every one of these studies has been dismissed by those anti-vaccine propagandists as having the wrong funding source, the wrong research design, the wrong focus, not separating out antigens from other vaccine ingredients, separating antigens from other vaccine ingredients inappropriately, not testing this, or that or something else. > > The anti-vaccine movement wants ONE study. The One Study To Rule Them All. The One Study that tests every possible aspect of every vaccine. > > This is basically what the AVers are asking us to do. > > 1. Eliminate the use of all vaccines immediately in every country on the planet. Immediately. Regardless of any public health issues currently in existence. > > 2. Randomly sample an acceptable number of children for each experimental and control group for each group discussed below. > > The numbers in each group would need to be in the hundreds or thousands to satisfy statistical requirements for validity and significance, and would have to include children from every country, every ethnicity, every socio-economic status, with every possible genetic combination from parents, and of every possible health history based on parental family health. > > Anti-vaccine propagandists have rejected studies with 3000 or more subjects, so each group below would need to contain huge numbers in order to satisfy them. But then again, many of them accept 12 subjects (the number in Andrew Wakefield’s fraudulent study) as valid, so who knows? > > Anti-vaccine propagandists are fond of saying “there are plenty of unvaccinated kids already, just use them!” You cannot use pre-existing groups who selectively vaccinate or do not vaccinate at all, because research has shown that these parents have certain differences from other parents, and those pre-existing differences would be a confounding variable in the study. > > To do a credible study of the kind that the anti-vaccine propagandists are demanding, you MUST randomly sample children, and then you MUST randomly assign them to the groups below. Parents would have no choice about this. > > 1. Obtain permission from parents of children in each group to administer an injection into their child. The parents and children will not know what injection the child is receiving. The parents would not be allowed to have their children receive any injection from any other source, to avoid contamination of the data. Some children in the study would be completely unprotected from any disease outbreak, and their parents would be unaware of whether or not the children were unprotected. > > 2. The injection received may contain any of the following configurations: > > • Just the antigen, in saline. > > • Just saline. This comparison (or control, in scientific terms) group would be necessary for every single group involved in the study. No one in this group would receive any aspect of any vaccine ever, just injections of saline. > > • Just one ingredient of the vaccine (i.e., formaldehyde), in saline. > > • Two or more of the ingredients, in various combinations (i.e., formaldehyde and the antigen, formaldehyde and the aluminum salts, the antigen and the aluminum salts, etc.). For example, according to the CDC pink book, the MMR-II vaccine contains these ingredients (pdf): > > - Vitamins > > - Amino acids > > - Fetal bovine serum > > - Sucrose > > - Sodium phosphate > > - Glutamate (an amino acid) > > - Recombinant human albumin > > - Neomycin > > - Sorbitol > > - Hydrolyzed gelatin > > - Chick embryo cell culture > > - WI-38 human diploid lung fibroblasts > > So, starting with the first ingredient on the list, we’d have to have a group that received every single vitamin injected, every single vitamin in combination with every single other vitamin, in combination with multiple of the other vitamins, etc. Let’s say there are four different vitamins (A, B, C, D). We’d have to have an A only group, a B only group, a C only group a D only group, an A/B group, an A/C group, an A/D group, a B/C group, a B/D group, a C/D group, an ABC group, an ABD group, an ACD group, a BDC group, and an ABCD . > > That’s 15 comparison groups for four ingredients. Then, we’d have to have a group for each vitamin in combination with each other ingredient – vitamin A combined with sucrose, B with sucrose, D with sucrose, etc. Then we would have to test each other ingredient in various combinations with other ingredients. Again, thousands of groups, each having hundreds or thousands of children to cover all combinations mentioned above. > > The above breakdown of possible combinations would have to be repeated for every vaccine, for every booster, and for every possible combination of boosters. > > 1. Follow every single child in every single group throughout the course of their entire lifetime (which, with current life expectancy, can be 70-80 years in developed countries), monitoring every medical/health condition that develops, and comparing those rates for each and every group above. If a single of the thousands of study groups lost a single participant (through moving, withdrawal, death, etc.), the Avers would declare the entire study null and void, even though such attrition is to be expected, and is controlled for in the study design. > > 2. Compare each group above for every possible illness or medical/health condition. > > 3. For each and every group mentioned above, we’d have to create a control group in which the children received no injection at all, of anything. No saline, no antigen, nothing. > > 4. Remember that the anti-vaccine movement wants each vaccine tested individually, THEN in combination. So, we’d have to have one generation of children receiving the above breakdown of ONE vaccine over an entire lifetime, then another generation of children receiving the above breakdown of ANOTHER vaccine over an entire lifetime, etc., until all vaccines have been tested individually. Then and only then do we start testing vaccines with boosters. Then after that, vaccines in combination, but only two at a time. Then three at a time. This requirement would mean that the study that would fit the criteria demanded, the One True Study, would last until approximately the heat death of the sun. > > This doesn’t even get into the ethics of the various groups, the sampling difficulties, or the enormous amounts of money that would be required (money that could not come from any government, any governmental agency, any institution of higher education, or any scientist who’s ever done vaccination research in their career). > > At this point, it should be apparently that such a study is not possible. > > It’s also not necessary. > > Various studies have addressed various aspects of each of the embedded questions in the above scenarios, and in combination, those answers address the concern of the anti-vaccine movement. For example, one ingredient used in vaccines are aluminum salts (not elemental aluminum, as is claimed). These are used as an adjuvant, to create a stronger immune response so that less antigenic material is required. The safety of these adjuvants has been well established. That’s just one meta-analysis of the studies of the safety of one ingredient. It’s not part of The One Study that anti-vaccine propagandists want, though, so they reject it. > > Think of the studies as a jigsaw puzzle. The puzzle isn’t one piece. It’s many pieces that fit together, making a total picture. The total picture on vaccinations is that they are safe and save lives. > > Science isn’t about The One Study. It’s about ALL the studies. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/522 "2013-05-23T15:27:48Z")
But medicine was wrong before, so you’ve got to respect my half-baked bullshit. :smack:😕:mad: ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/523 "2013-05-23T15:33:42Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Yes, the rest is inert or currently known not to be harmful, but things change all the time. I personally think it’s the antigens but since I’m not a scientist I would not make a a statement that any part could or could not cause long term issues. Generally speaking, they actually don’t. In fact, the whole point of labeling things inert is to point out their inability to react with most things. ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/524 "2013-05-23T18:00:51Z")
Here’s the unassailable beauty of curlcoat’s logic: Even if something is studied enough to be “currently known not to be harmful”, that’s not good enough, because “things change all the time.” This is the position of someone who doesn’t want it to even be **possible** for any evidence to change her mind. That is a hint to anyone trying to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/525 "2013-05-23T21:00:30Z")
The New York Times [weighs in](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/opinion/the-aftermath-of-measles-vaccine-scare-in-britain.html?_r=1&) on the Wakefield legacy: \*"(Fears about the MMR vaccine) had been fanned by Dr. Andrew Wakefield, a British researcher, who claimed to have found a link between the vaccine, gastrointestinal problems found in many autistic children and autism itself. His work was subsequently discredited, and the BMJ, a British medical journal, concluded that flaws in his scientific study were not honest mistakes but an “elaborate fraud.” Even so, he has stalwart defenders who ignore the overwhelming consensus of vaccine and infectious disease experts that the vaccine is safe and effective and not a cause of autism. It has a proven record of safety when given to hundreds of millions of people around the world. Last year, Britain had some 2,000 reported cases of measles, and it has already had more than 1,200 this year. The highest rates are among adolescents who were never vaccinated, some because they lacked easy access to vaccines, others because their parents feared autism. The most serious outbreaks this year have been in Wales, where there are also signs that mumps may be increasing. A vaccination campaign aimed mostly at young people ages 10 to 16 is now trying to fill a gap that should never have occurred. "\* ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/526 "2013-05-23T21:11:40Z")
So, anything new in this thread? Hey, I’ve got an idea - the first post on every new page should be a summary of the thread so far! ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/527 "2013-05-23T22:07:23Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I believe it was Oscar Wilde who once said “There is only one thing worse in life than being talked about, and that is being **curlcoat** ”. I laughed, good sir/madam. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/528 "2013-05-24T03:56:17Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Then why are you still going on about this? Gives me something to do when I have to rest. Also, despite claims to the contrary, no one has provided a cite that anyone is researching the long term effects of multiple vaccinations given in a short period of time. > [@](#): > > Because you’ve responded so well to other cites. Far better than you all responded to mine. FFS, statements of fact have been made late in the argument without any cite at all - I’m sure you wouldn’t let me off that easy. > [@](#): > > Oh for fuck sake. Really? This is your argument? If so, I recommend that you avoid _everything_ on the off chance that someday it might prove to have adverse effects. Cellphones. Bubblewrap. Cheerios. Yoga. Spoons. Any one of those could be a silent killer. And internet messageboards - those are definitely suspicious. You’d better avoid those until you can be sure. Are you purposely being stupid? None of those things have been proven to be harmful to other mammals when overused. Actually, looking at the rest of your post, its obvious that you haven’t been keeping up and are just picking and choosing things to make inane responses to. > [@Lacunae Matata](#): > > ``` > Serious question: Would it not be simpler, curlcoat, to Google something like "studies of adjuvants in vaccines"? And then read up on the subject? > > ``` As I’ve said before, I have been unable to find anything on any long term studies. People here claim they are happening but haven’t provided any proof. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > ``` > As for her idiot arguments on vaccine safety allow me to bring up the link I brought up before. The one by my esteemed colleague Kolga that answers curlcoat's fucking stupid questions. The same stupid fucking questions that she's asked a million times and had the fucking answers handed to her over and over and over and over and over and over again. > > ``` Obviously in your rush to be hysterical at anyone who dares to question you, what my _one_ question/observation is has completely escaped you. I am not demanding The One Study To Rule Them All, nor anything to do with studying each and every component. I merely wanted to know if anyone was researching the long term effects. That’s it. They don’t even need to start with children; much easier to study current adults. And certainly no need to do The One Study To Rule Them All if it turns out there aren’t any long term problems associated with vaccinations in humans. > [@Inner Stickler](#): > > Generally speaking, they actually don’t. In fact, the whole point of labeling things inert is to point out their inability to react with most things. Yeah, in my quest to not type whole pages of text, that was poorly worded. I was addressing “currently known not to be harmful”. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/529 "2013-05-24T12:23:50Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Are you purposely being stupid? None of those things have been proven to be harmful to other mammals when overused. [whining] How can you say this, there haven’t been a long term studies on these subjects[/whining] ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/530 "2013-05-24T12:36:31Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > So, anything new in this thread? Hey, I’ve got an idea - the first post on every new page should be a summary of the thread so far! **curlcoat** is willfully stupid. But I doubt that counts as anything new to most people. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/531 "2013-05-24T12:40:38Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > [whining] How can you say this, there haven’t been a long term studies on these subjects[/whining] That pretty much sums it up. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/532 "2013-05-24T15:14:07Z")
The vast majority of the time, when you hear an antivaxer moaning about how research demonstrating the safety and efficacy of vaccines is allegedly inadequate/defective/biased, what they really mean is “The studies don’t show what I want them to!”. That’s been the case in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/533 "2013-05-24T19:33:18Z")
I’m surprised someone who equates handshakes with sexual assault is uneasy about people being injected with deactivated viruses. Or am I mistaking curlcoat for someone else? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/534 "2013-05-24T19:35:31Z")
You are. ZPG Zealot is the poster with intense handshake rules. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/535 "2013-05-24T19:35:46Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’m surprised someone who equates handshakes with sexual assault is uneasy about people being injected with deactivated viruses. Or am I mistaking curlcoat for someone else? That’s our _other_ resident child-hatin’ loon… **ZPGZealot.** 😃 ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/536 "2013-05-24T19:38:16Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’m surprised someone who equates handshakes with sexual assault is uneasy about people being injected with deactivated viruses. Or am I mistaking curlcoat for someone else? That’s **ZPG Zealot**. \*\*curlcoat \*\*is the moron who eats napkin sandwiches and makes really dumb remarks about vaccines. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/537 "2013-05-24T19:39:32Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > That’s **ZPG Zealot**. \*\*curlcoat \*\*is the moron who eats napkin sandwiches. :eek: The things I miss… ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/538 "2013-05-25T06:17:56Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The vast majority of the time, when you hear an antivaxer moaning about how research demonstrating the safety and efficacy of vaccines is allegedly inadequate/defective/biased, what they really mean is “The studies don’t show what I want them to!”. > > That’s been the case in this thread. Huh. Asking if such and such research has been done is the same thing as all that? Wow. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > That’s **ZPG Zealot**. \*\*curlcoat \*\*is the moron who eats napkin sandwiches and makes really dumb remarks about vaccines. So you also make fun of the lengths that poor people go to in order to get something, anything into their stomachs? Gosh you are a wonderful person. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/539 "2013-05-25T09:13:51Z")
I just read most of this thread, and something occurred to me. Might some folks be afraid of vaccines (and others more susceptible to anti-vax BS) because, deep down, they are really just afraid of getting _poked with needles?_ I recall “getting shots” as one of the more traumatic fears from my childhood. Needles seem to have gotten thinner since then (the 1970s), or maybe I’m just not such a fraidy-cat anymore, but still, I think this might be a subconscious factor. Even more potent is the fear among parents of “needlessly” (i.e., no immediately perceivable benefit) inflicting pain, however temporary, on one’s baby. I suppose one way to test my theory would be to see if anti-vax crap is so prevalent either in places where non-vaccine medecines are also routinely given via injections (Mexico is one, or at least was until recently), or in places where vaccines are given in pill form (if that’s even possible). In short, needles _are_ scary, so it’s relatively easy to transfer that fear to things \*associated with[/] those needles. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/540 "2013-05-25T12:42:13Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Might some folks be afraid of vaccines (and others more susceptible to anti-vax BS) because, deep down, they are really just afraid of getting _poked with needles?_ [Post #429](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16302482&postcount=429). The medical term is trypanophobia, and yes - it’s the basis of some antivax sentiment. Just how much is hard to say, since people are reluctant to admit these fears. However most who have needle phobias don’t build up elaborate paranoid constructs about physicians, public health experts and others who promote immunizations in order to justify their anxieties about needles. > [@](#): > > I just read most of this thread, and something occurred to me. The brain bleach is down the next aisle. Speaking of which, the annual [Autism One conference](http://www.autismone.org/content/autismone-generation-rescue-conference-2013) is taking place this weekend. All the luminaries of the antivax movement will be there - Dan Burton, RFK Jr., Andrew Wakefield, Mark Geier (who reportedly just lost his last license to practice medicine anywhere in the U.S., thanks to his prescribing a powerful hormonal drug to children (Lupron, also used for chemical castration of sex offenders), and the bleach enema lady. Chicagoland Dopers, enjoy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=28)