# Massive measles outbreak - thank you, Andrew Fucking Wakefield **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119 "2013-04-19T10:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/541 "2013-05-25T12:54:50Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Asking if such and such research has been done is the same thing as all that? No one is bothered by asking the question. It’s the habit of not listening to the answers that gets people annoyed. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/542 "2013-05-25T13:00:10Z")
[Pertussis cases worsening in Ann Arbor schools.](http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/ann-arbor-whooping-cough-outbreak-worsens/-/1719418/20281414/-/ikbtnb/-/index.html) Someone really needs to lay down the law on these ignorant shitheads. Schools should unilaterally _refuse_ to accept unvaccinated kids. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/543 "2013-05-25T14:22:09Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > [Post #429](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16302482&postcount=429). > > The medical term is trypanophobia, and yes - it’s the basis of some antivax sentiment… Just how much is hard to say, since people are reluctant to admit these fears. However most who have needle phobias don’t build up elaborate paranoid constructs about physicians, public health experts and others who promote immunizations in order to justify their anxieties about needles…The brain bleach is down the next aisle. Thanks, and…thanks! RFK, Jr., huh? Ouch. As a leader in advocating for the environmental health of the Hudson River estuary system, I would have thought him to be more adept at blending good science with good public policy. Sad. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/544 "2013-05-26T04:49:09Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > No one is bothered by asking the question. It’s the habit of not listening to the answers that gets people annoyed. I should save this someplace so I don’t have to type it over and over and over … Cite for where the question was answered? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/545 "2013-05-26T15:22:21Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I should save this someplace so I don’t have to type it over and over and over … > > Cite for where the question was answered? In over half a dozen posts, you lazy, stupid troll. If that’s not good enough for you, go google it. For someone who hates children so much, you sure act like one. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/546 "2013-05-26T16:40:55Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > In over half a dozen posts, you lazy, stupid troll. If that’s not good enough for you, go google it. No. There has been no cite in any of this, nor any of your previous rants in other threads, that shows that there has been any research on long term effects. A couple of people have just said there are, but no cites and at this point I don’t believe it without proof. As for Google, I’ve already said there’s nothing there - I did that ages ago before I asked the question the first time. > [@](#): > > For someone who hates children so much, you sure act like one. Back atcha. For someone who claims to be an expert, you sure cannot handle skepticism without throwing a tantrum. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/547 "2013-05-26T17:09:05Z")
Patience is a virtue, but when dealing with some people, it becomes a divine gift. **curlcoat** , you asked about different vaccines for the same disease. There are different companies making similar products for some vaccines, but as far as I know, the outcry is general, and not confined to a specific type. So that all the vaccines are targeted, and not just the ones having x or y component. And IIRC, Wakefield try at some point to set up an MMR vaccine that would compete with what was available then (and now, I presume). Lastly, there are other vaccines that are in the pipeline to combat both new diseases and new versions against already scheduled diseases. But until they are found to be as good as what is out in the market right now (if not better), they are not approved. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/548 "2013-05-26T17:32:27Z")
You’re not a skeptic, **curlcoat**. You’re a smug fucking moron repeating idiotic anti-vax arguments over and over and over and over and over again. For the last fucking time, vaccines have been in existence for over two hundred years starting with Edward Jenner’s development of the smallpox vaccine. That’s two hundred years. Is that long term enough for you? Since that time amazing things have happened. Smallpox, a disease with a huge mortality rate that killed over 400 million people, has literally been wiped from the face of the earth. As late as the 1960’s, more than two million unvaccinated people died from it. Infant mortality rates that used to be about one in five even in relatively well developed nations, have now fallen in most industrialized societies where vaccines are in common use. People are not dying from vaccine preventable illnesses such as diphtheria, polio, tetanus and measles in such places. They’re also not suffering long term disabiling effects from said diseases such as blindness, deafness, sterility and mental retardation. Vaccines are not linked to autoimmune diseases such as ms nor are they linked to other diseases such as autism. I provided cites for all these facts. Go read the thread and find them, you lazy jerk. And stop whining that people aren’t treating you politely enough. When you call people “vax Nazis,” you don’t deserve any. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/549 "2013-05-26T21:39:14Z")
Here’s a nice look at how the anti-vax side operates when they can get away with it: [http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/grieving-parents-speak-out-against-anti-vaccination-extremists/story-fni0cwl5-1226650422913](http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/grieving-parents-speak-out-against-anti-vaccination-extremists/story-fni0cwl5-1226650422913) There are no words, honestly. It’s just _vile_. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/550 "2013-05-26T22:34:01Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Here’s a nice look at how the anti-vax side operates when they can get away with it: > > [http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/grieving-parents-speak-out-against-anti-vaccination-extremists/story-fni0cwl5-1226650422913](http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/grieving-parents-speak-out-against-anti-vaccination-extremists/story-fni0cwl5-1226650422913) > > There are no words, honestly. It’s just _vile_. Here’s my favorite quote from a communication sent by an antivaxer to Dana McCaffery (whose child died of whooping cough, after which antivaxers harassed the family for speaking out in favor of immunization): _"“I could walk through a ward of babies dying from whooping cough or any other infectious disease and it would not affect my decision to not vaccinate my children.”_ [http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/grieving-mother-toni-mccaffery-was-vilified-by-anti-vaccination-bullies/story-fni0xqrc-1226650600820](http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/grieving-mother-toni-mccaffery-was-vilified-by-anti-vaccination-bullies/story-fni0xqrc-1226650600820) As for the continued claim that there has been no research on long term effects of vaccines - it’s been brought up repeatedly in this thread that research shows no connection between development of multiple sclerosis or diabetes and prior vaccination. Pretending that such research doesn’t exist is, well, dishonest. “There hasn’t been any research on long-term effects” is a staple of woo-sters, right up there with “All the studies (whose results I don’t like) are biased”. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/551 "2013-05-26T23:53:06Z")
Just came across a mention of a documentary, made and broadcast in Australia: _Jabbed: Love, Fear, and Vaccines_. There’s a [website](http://www.sbs.com.au/shows/jabbed/about/page/i/1/h/Home/)with what appears to be a fair bit of information on vaccines associated with it. Anyone know if there’s a way to see this via the web? It seems to be fairly even-handed. The conclusion is that > [@](#): > > vaccines are not perfect, but they are the best option we have right now. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/552 "2013-05-27T00:19:07Z")
Well, Serious negative effects are extremely rare, and there are a few people who can’t or shouldn’t have specific vaccines. Vaccines are constantly being developed - there’s actually a great deal of research, and even more development, around the world, into making them even safer and applying them to more diseases. It’s definitely true they’re not _perfect_ - but they’re honestly about as close to it as medical science has ever come. Vaccines are usually cheap, offer help to nearly anyone, prevent problems widely, and take very little in the way of complex skills or resources to implement. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/553 "2013-05-27T01:22:00Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > For someone who claims to be an expert, you sure cannot handle skepticism without throwing a tantrum. As already has been said, you’re not a skeptic because you aren’t listening to the answers to your questions. I see no point in going back and pointing you to the answers since you didn’t read them the first time. You’re flinging poo at this point, and it’s pretty boring. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/554 "2013-05-27T07:03:55Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Patience is a virtue, but when dealing with some people, it becomes a divine gift. > > **curlcoat** , you asked about different vaccines for the same disease. There are different companies making similar products for some vaccines, but as far as I know, the outcry is general, and not confined to a specific type. So that all the vaccines are targeted, and not just the ones having x or y component. And IIRC, Wakefield try at some point to set up an MMR vaccine that would compete with what was available then (and now, I presume). Lastly, there are other vaccines that are in the pipeline to combat both new diseases and new versions against already scheduled diseases. But until they are found to be as good as what is out in the market right now (if not better), they are not approved. I can only assume you are talking about my question as to whether a parent could get a vaccination from a different company if their child had a reaction. Your generalization here really has little to do with that. > [@Telemark](#): > > As already has been said, you’re not a skeptic because you aren’t listening to the answers to your questions. I see no point in going back and pointing you to the answers since you didn’t read them the first time. You’re flinging poo at this point, and it’s pretty boring. _There has never been an answer to my core question._ At least not one with a cite. And yes, I am flinging poo because that is what has been happening since I made my first observation - a small group ass-umed I must be anti-vax right off and tossed the shit instead of giving a simple intelligent answer. **LavenderBlue** not only throws fits, she cannot even stay on point and goes into long explanations of things that have very little to do with anything I’ve said. Such as vaccinations have been around for 200 hundred years, as if we are still using the same thing now as back then, or that people aren’t dying of diseases we vaccinate for now, as if that had anything to do with my question. It’s like talking to a two year old. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/555 "2013-05-27T08:05:47Z")
Frankly, your _core question_ is stupid. Long-term effects is not a disease. Jackmanii has helpfully provided information on studies regarding a number of diseases. If a correlation between them and vaccines were found, that would be your long-term effect. Also, you had a page or so of people being far more polite than you deserved when the thread began and you shat on them until they started snarking at you at which point you cried about the big meanies. Perhaps the pit is not for you. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/556 "2013-05-27T11:16:50Z")
I thought your main question was “these diseases are no big deal - why not just let kids get them?” That’s how this all started, anyhow. Before the massive Gish galloping and hiding of goalposts. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/557 "2013-05-27T11:58:45Z")
Your core question seems to be “Why haven’t we studied this?” The answer remains “We have studied this and we haven’t found any significant problems.” ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/558 "2013-05-28T06:00:00Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Frankly, your _core question_ is stupid. Long-term effects is not a disease. No, that is just shorthand for ‘creating autoimmune disease’. > [@](#): > > Jackmanii has helpfully provided information on studies regarding a number of diseases. If a correlation between them and vaccines were found, that would be your long-term effect. Unless I missed it, all I’ve seen are cites of studies on the short term effects, unless you mean when some folks have just said “there is no connection” without cite? > [@](#): > > Also, you had a page or so of people being far more polite than you deserved when the thread began and you shat on them until they started snarking at you at which point you cried about the big meanies. Perhaps the pit is not for you. Fuck that noise. Being at all polite was and is extremely rare, but when it happened I was polite back. And, I never cried about any big meanies, if for no other reason than I couldn’t care less about the opinions of people like that. What I actually did point out was the fact that certain authors are so unable to deal with anything that they think might be sort of leaning towards the anti-vax camp that they are likely driving people over there due to the way they talk to them. > [@Smeghead](#): > > I thought your main question was “these diseases are no big deal - why not just let kids get them?” That was (I think) my first question in this thread, well sort of. What I actually said was why is the attitude towards what were the usual childhood diseases when I was a kid so much different now? > [@Telemark](#): > > Your core question seems to be “Why haven’t we studied this?” The answer remains “We have studied this and we haven’t found any significant problems.” For the fifth or sixth time - cite for any studies on the long term effects, particularly on the immune system, of all these vaccinations? Have any such studies been done, as they were in dogs? You know, if you all didn’t spend so much time and energy on twisting everything around, **LavenderBlue** wouldn’t have to have so many meltdowns. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/559 "2013-05-28T07:31:41Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > For the fifth or sixth time - cite for any studies on the long term effects, particularly on the immune system, of all these vaccinations? For the fifth or sixth time, you’ve been given cites of such studies that cite many other such studies, including studies of possible links to diabetes, autism, allergies, brain tumors, inflammatory bowel disease, encephalitis, and rheumatoid arthritis. You simply ignore them and continue demanding cites for “studies on the long term effects” of vaccinations. If you really wanted to know the answer to this question, you could not only read the cites provided and look up the additional studies cited in them, but look around on the internet and find the data yourself. Google “vaccination long term brain tumors”, for example, and you get [a _Cancer Epidemiology_ article](http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/12/2/177.full) on “Polio vaccination and the risk of brain tumors in adults” first crack out of the box. Check the links in **LavenderBlue** ’s post of 05-22-2013 08:58 AM in order to see a detailed discussion of vaccines and autoimmune disorders. In fact, **curlcoat** , your homework is to go to each of those linked articles that I’ve just mentioned and quote three sentences from each of them that relate to the issue of studies of long-term effects of vaccines. If you want us to believe that you’re genuinely interested in finding out information on this topic and not just trying to fake a “gotcha” by pretending that you haven’t been given any information on this topic, it’s time for you to prove that you can indeed engage with the information you’ve been given rather than just repeatedly overlooking it. ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/560 "2013-05-28T08:22:53Z")
Excuse my medical ignorance, but what would be the value of a long term study that was longer than say, a single generation anyway? Surely if vaccines have been proven safe by studying a single generation of the vaccinated, would there be any value of making the same study in generation 2, 3, 4, 5 etc etc? Surely the results would be virtually the same no? (Honestly, this is a genuine question asked out of ignorance. I am not an anti-vaxxer JAQing off. My father had polio as a child (and TB!), although he was “fortunate” enough to suffer only an atrophied leg, so I have first-hand experience of what vaccinations are preventing) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=29)