# Massive measles outbreak - thank you, Andrew Fucking Wakefield **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119 "2013-04-19T10:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/41 "2013-04-19T19:54:38Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > . . . > That brought something else to mind; does anyone know someone who was anti-vaxx, had their kid come down with one of these preventable diseases, and wished to hell that they had vaccinated after all? I do know someone. I don’t know all the details, but she has two kids who are both significantly disabled by autism, as it happens. I’m not sure if they had a diagnosis of it before stopping vaccines with the older one, or if it was a coincidence that she delayed vaccines and then found out her child had autism. But she has mentioned that the older boy was in the hospital multiple times with illnesses that might have been prevented by vaccines, and after that, she put the younger child on a regular vaccine schedule. (She noted that he already had autism and was having seizures, so she wasn’t exactly worried that vaccines would cause those problems at that point.) So anyway, nowadays she’s fairly pro-vax. I didn’t have a kid get sick, but I had been using Sears’s alternate schedule. Then I read Offit’s criticism of it, and was like, “Man, that was wrong. Back to the CDC schedule for us!” But I am unusually open to rational critiques of my dumb beliefs. Most anti-vax people just assume Offit is The Devil and discount anything he says. For those interested in this, [Refutations of Anti-Vaccine Memes](https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM?hc_location=stream) is a pretty cool Facebook group. They circulate pithy, high-impact images that counter the similar pictures anti-vaxers put out over social media. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/42 "2013-04-19T20:10:51Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > Even when he was debunked, many people didn’t stop believing that vaccines are bad. The new ‘popular’ idea among the idiot circles is that it’s much better for a child to build a ‘natural’ immunity to the disease by actually catching it. So these parents think it’s better for their children to get measles, mumps, chicken pox than to actually get a vaccine for it. Now all we need is a couple thousand gallons of a solution full of measles virus and a cropduster. Natural immunity coming right up… ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/43 "2013-04-19T20:16:17Z")
> [@USCDiver](#): > > The idea with vaccinations is to induce the same immunity without subjecting the patients to the complications of the actual infection. Is this not common knowledge? I guess it isn’t. Horrible pox scars. Crippling polio. Direct death from disease. Necrosis and lost limbs. Personally, I don’t see why we’d like to skip the fuss and muss and build up immunity naturally. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![AnthonyElite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/44 "2013-04-19T20:37:36Z")
Okay, that was my understanding of it…I just didn’t quite get the disconnect, I suppose. So how do we determine which viruses are worth the trouble of immunizing against? Mortality rates? Are there any real, proven downsides to immunization? Is it as effective as the body’s defense built due to natural exposure? Is there any benefit to the body being naturally exposed opposed to immunization? I always laugh when people run to the local pharmacy to get immunization of the latest cold germ :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/45 "2013-04-19T20:47:39Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > So how do we determine which viruses are worth the trouble of immunizing against? Mortality rates? And morbidity rates. > [@](#): > > Are there any real, proven downsides to immunization? A few people are allergic to some vaccine components. That’s about it. > [@](#): > > Is it as effective as the body’s defense built due to natural exposure? Yes. > [@](#): > > Is there any benefit to the body being naturally exposed opposed to immunization? No. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/46 "2013-04-19T20:54:01Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > So how do we determine which viruses are worth the trouble of immunizing against? Mortality rates? Infection rates vs complications is a good measure. We don’t get immunized against stuff like typhus in the US because it’s not much of an issue. We also don’t immunize against polio or smallpox because we don’t get cases of those here anymore. > [@AnthonyElite](#): > > Are there any real, proven downsides to immunization? Is it as effective as the body’s defense built due to natural exposure? Yes, that’s rather the point. Your “natural” immunity is the same as one derived from a vaccine. A vaccine is designed to get your body to recognize a disease and develop a defense against it. Some vaccines do lose effectiveness eventually, but we also lose our naturally derived immunity too (see Shingles). > [@AnthonyElite](#): > > Is there any benefit to the body being naturally exposed opposed to immunization? Maybe if you’re a sadist. > [@AnthonyElite](#): > > I always laugh when people run to the local pharmacy to get immunization of the latest cold germ :rolleyes: The common cold has no associated vaccine. The flu? Are you deliberately a fucking idiot? In an average year, hundreds of thousands of people die of the flu. If we could immunize everybody every year, that number could be slashed. What kind of idiot asshole laughs at a deadly fucking disease that kills hundreds of thousands in a “good” year and [tens of millions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu) in a bad year? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/47 "2013-04-19T21:03:22Z")
I didn’t know much about measles so I looked it up; [from this source (World Health Organization {WHO})](http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/): > [@](#): > > Key facts > > Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available. > In 2011, there were 158 000 measles deaths globally – about 430 deaths every day or 18 deaths every hour. > More than 95% of measles deaths occur in low-income countries with weak health infrastructures. > Measles vaccination resulted in a 71% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2011 worldwide. > In 2011, about 84% of the world’s children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 72% in 2000. ---
**Author:** ![AnthonyElite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/48 "2013-04-19T21:09:55Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Infection rates vs complications is a good measure. > > We don’t get immunized against stuff like typhus in the US because it’s not much of an issue. > > We also don’t immunize against polio or smallpox because we don’t get cases of those here anymore. > > Yes, that’s rather the point. Your “natural” immunity is the same as one derived from a vaccine. A vaccine is designed to get your body to recognize a disease and develop a defense against it. Some vaccines do lose effectiveness eventually, but we also lose our naturally derived immunity too (see Shingles). > > Maybe if you’re a sadist. > > The common cold has no associated vaccine. > > The flu? Are you deliberately a fucking idiot? In an average year, hundreds of thousands of people die of the flu. If we could immunize everybody every year, that number could be slashed. > > What kind of idiot asshole laughs at a deadly fucking disease that kills hundreds of thousands in a “good” year and [tens of millions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu) in a bad year? Well…if you have that attitude, I won’t be getting immunized anyway, always been healthy without them, and furthermore, for your vitriol I hope you and yours catch the flu from me and perish, ya dickhole. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/49 "2013-04-19T21:18:03Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > Well…if you have that attitude, I won’t be getting immunized anyway, always been healthy without them… So were the majority of people who died of the Spanish flu, or the Native people who died from smallpox. It doesn’t matter how healthy you’ve been in the past if you cross paths with the wrong bacterium or virus. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/50 "2013-04-19T21:20:57Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > Well…if you have that attitude, I won’t be getting immunized anyway, always been healthy without them, and furthermore, for your vitriol I hope you and yours catch the flu from me and perish, ya dickhole. What you got was lucky. A lot of that ‘luck’ was probably due to the immunity of those around you who were civic-minded and got their vaccinations. Too many people think like you do and we get outbreaks, and people die. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/51 "2013-04-19T21:26:12Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I love your turn of phrase. 🙂 > > [Jenny McCarthy’s updated body count.](http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html) I love the way [Penn & Teller](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo) explain it! ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/52 "2013-04-19T21:30:04Z")
Plus there’s a disease like chickenpox which later in life inflicts [shingles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shingles) on a large percentage of people (50% in one study) who had chickenpox. This is a disease that can damage your eyesight, or maybe just cause burning, excruciating pain for weeks or months or longer. That fucking virus hides out in your own nervous system for 50 years or so after your case of chickenpox and then resurfaces to make your life misery. Oh, and a big reason you get vaccinated? So you don’t pass it on to those who are too young or too immunocompromised to get the vaccine. Vaccination **works**. We have only exterminated two infectious diseases, smallpox and rinderpest. The former was through vaccination. The latter through vaccination and killing the infected - it’s a cattle disease. Polio has gone from a worldwide plague to under 1000 cases per year (in, IIRC, 5-7 countries), and may even be wiped out in our lifetime. This is because of intensive, multinational, multi-organizational efforts. Vaccination fucking **works** , and we are insanely lucky to be living in a time where this is even a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/53 "2013-04-19T21:36:53Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > Well…if you have that attitude, I won’t be getting immunized anyway, always been healthy without them, and furthermore, for your vitriol I hope you and yours catch the flu from me and perish, ya dickhole. No-one who’s ever had a proper dose of the flu would have such shit opinions as you about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/54 "2013-04-19T21:43:47Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I love the way [Penn & Teller](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo) explain it! Love. This. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/55 "2013-04-19T21:45:30Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > Well…if you have that attitude, I won’t be getting immunized anyway, always been healthy without them, and furthermore, for your vitriol I hope you and yours catch the flu from me and perish, ya dickhole. Nothing like deliberate, willful, and avoidable ignorance combined with a complete contempt for the health and well being of your fellow man. ☹ I’d come up with a pithy insult, but I think that sums it up quite well. I, for one, hope you and everybody around you beats the odds and not spread or contract any preventable diseases, though it’s likely verging on certain it’s too late for that. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/56 "2013-04-20T00:04:14Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > We also don’t immunize against polio or smallpox because we don’t get cases of those here anymore. One of which has been eliminated from natural spread altogether worldwide. Think of that, a disease that helped destroy the civilizations of the New World, itself gone. But alas the worldwide eradication of polio has been getting thwarted by various dolts who have spread rumors in the developing countries that it’s some sort of nefarious conspiracy from the Westerners. BTW not to get into the firefight, but really: the Flu is not “the latest cold germ”. A strain of the Flu was [the deadliest pandemic of the 20th century](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic). ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/57 "2013-04-20T00:21:55Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > Well…if you have that attitude, I won’t be getting immunized anyway, always been healthy without them, and furthermore, for your vitriol I hope you and yours catch the flu from me and perish, ya dickhole. That was not a rude post. Even if it were, one rude post is hardly a good reason to decide not to take steps against getting diseases which could seriously harm or kill you and other people. Sorry, grandad, that I passed the flu on to you and didn’t even try to stop it, but someone on the internet was mean to me! You also just wished death on another poster. That might not go so well for you. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/58 "2013-04-20T00:49:16Z")
Jeez. Obvious anti-vacc troll is obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/59 "2013-04-20T01:03:35Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > Well…if you have that attitude, I won’t be getting immunized anyway, always been healthy without them, and furthermore, for your vitriol I hope you and yours catch the flu from me and perish, ya dickhole. [Moderating] **AnthonyElite** , wishing harm or death on other posters is a violation of the boards rules. Please avoid doing this in the future. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/60 "2013-04-20T01:31:16Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > No-one who’s ever had a proper dose of the flu would have such shit opinions as you about it. Well, not quite true. I had influenza type B (which I have no idea what it is exactly) about 20 years ago, but I don’t go get the flu shots. I’m not part of any of the groups likely to get it and since I’m allergic to all kinds of things, I avoid unnecessary shots. Which leads into my question. I am not pro- or anti-vax, since I have no kids to have jabbed and never will. That out of the way, why are the measles such a big deal these days? When I was a kid during the Bronze Age, they gave the rubella shot to women planning on having children but the measles (“soft” measles) had no shot and I don’t think kids were given the rubella shot. (That’s the “german measles”, right?) Pretty much all of my friends in grade school got the measles, were out of school for a couple of days and that was that. What happened? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=4)