# Massive measles outbreak - thank you, Andrew Fucking Wakefield **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119 "2013-04-19T10:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/581 "2013-05-28T21:45:11Z")
> [@Battle\_Pope](#): > > After about 100 years they’re all dead! :eek: Birth is the leading cause of death. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/582 "2013-05-28T22:07:22Z")
> [@SpazCat](#): > > Birth is the leading cause of death. :dubious: Have you done any long-term studies on that? ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/583 "2013-05-28T22:24:56Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nitpick: I said that, not **curlcoat**. Oops, I just figured out what happened. I had previously clicked a multi-quote on curlcoat, and then when I responded to your post, it stuck a curlcoat quote up at the top, which I then trimmed down to just the part of your post I wanted to respond to, missing the fact that it wasn’t actually your quote tag I left. Mea culpa. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/584 "2013-05-30T06:39:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > If you really wanted to know the answer to this question, you could not only read the cites provided and look up the additional studies cited in them, but look around on the internet and find the data yourself. Google “vaccination long term brain tumors”, for example, and you get [a _Cancer Epidemiology_ article](http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/12/2/177.full) on “Polio vaccination and the risk of brain tumors in adults” first crack out of the box. Well looky there - a cite! Isn’t that great, thanks. > [@](#): > > In fact, **curlcoat** , your homework is to go to each of those linked articles that I’ve just mentioned and quote three sentences from each of them that relate to the issue of studies of long-term effects of vaccines. How about if you go back and read my responses at that time? > [@RobDog](#): > > Excuse my medical ignorance, but what would be the value of a long term study that was longer than say, a single generation anyway? I doubt there was be any value of going any further than a generation unless there was concern of some genetic factor. > [@KarlGrenze](#): > > I’m still confused at **curlcoat** ’s use of “long-term effects”. Not that, at the end, it will make a big difference, but does she mean the possible effects (including chronic problems) that will occur shortly after completing a vaccination series (that acording to her, may be of long duration)? Or does she mean diseases that will show up years down the road? Ya know, you of all people should know what I mean since I’ve said the reason it came up was the link between over - vaccination in dogs and auto immune disease in later life. I have no idea where you are getting the idea that I think a vaccination series is of long duration, unless you mean the ones kids get from birth to two years? > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I think it fair that if you’re going to ask about the long term effects of vaccines then should first ask about the long term effects of vaccine preventable diseases. No. That is how you try to turn aside what I’ve asked and cover it with emotion. I am in no way anti-vax no matter what you want to believe, and would certainly get any kids I might be responsible for shots for anything serious they would likely be exposed to even without any answers to my concerns. But I’d also would like to know if it’s really necessary to get all the boosters, if it’s really necessary to get so many vaccinations at once and/or so early in life. I would want to know that I am not trading short term comfort for long term problems later in their lives. But yeah, you go ahead and over-react to things I haven’t said, then try to say I’m posting just to get attention. :rolleyes: > [@Kimstu](#): > > T_2) Are any medical studies being done on possible statistically significant connections between vaccines and particular health problems over the long term, meaning several years or decades after the vaccination?_ > > The answer to (2) is “Yes” and will always continue to be “Yes”, since of course medical researchers who study such health problems want to know all about their causes and contributing factors. That is a different way to look at it and might make Googling for studies easier. > [@](#): > > Now, AFAICT there is no _systematic_ comprehensive program of studies designed to explore all possible lifelong health impacts of vaccines within a given timeframe, because such long-term studies aren’t required in order for vaccines to be approved. > > Which makes sense: antigens are most likely to produce side-effects in the short term, after all. It would be silly to delay acceptance of a vaccine that has been shown to be effective in preventing a dangerous illness, and to have no serious side-effects in the short term, just because we’re not yet absolutely sure that it can’t possibly have any longer-term negative effects. Hum. Seems short sighted but OK. OTOH, since antigens have been shown to produce long term negative effects in another mammal, a fairly complex one, should’nt there be some concern about humans? > [@](#): > > And the more that **curlcoat** goes on repeating the same previously answered question about long-term studies, the clearer it becomes that she’s ignoring the “Yes” answer to question (2). Nope, all I ask for is a cite. I have one now, one one disease/condition. > [@Gedd](#): > > **curlcoat** , maybe if you could help draw the line between “short term” and “long term” for us we could better understand what you are looking for. Where does long term start for you? This started with dogs, and in them the long term starts years after the original series of vaccinations. > [@Fenris](#): > > Just out of sheer, morbid curiosity, how do the antivax twats like Curlcoat respond to the basic fact that: > > We started giving polio vaccines, polio was pretty much eradicated > We started giving smallpox vaccines–we did eradicate it (yay us!) > We started giving measles vaccines–measles decreased to nearly nothing > > But when the screwballs started protesting and _not_ vaccinating their children, the incidents of these diseases have risen? > > I mean–cause and effect, right? This isn’t that hard. What’s their…um…“reasoning”? My reasoning, a non antivax person, is: Do we need to give that many vaccinations to achieve immunity? Is it a good idea to give so many at the same time? Is it a good idea to start at birth? Is there any connection to the number of vaccinations and the rise in many autoimmune diseases? Note there is nothing in there about not give vaccinations at all. ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/585 "2013-05-30T07:05:01Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I am in no way anti-vax no matter what you want to believe, and would certainly get any kids I might be responsible for shots for anything serious they would likely be exposed to even without any answers to my concerns. So you must have misspoken earlier when you said: > [@curlcoat](#): > > I personally would have a lot of trouble approving all of those shots if I had a kid > [@curlcoat](#): > > _if_ I had a kid, I’d have trouble with all of those shots and would need to do a lot of research before time for vaccinations came. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/586 "2013-05-30T07:07:13Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Is it a good idea to start at birth? Dude, the moment you entered the birth canal, you encountered shit your little baby body ain’t even heard of and the hits keep on coming for the rest of your life. Vaccines that can’t be weakened enough for a baby’s more fragile state are put off for a while but in the vast majority of cases, the immune system eats vaccines for lunch. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/587 "2013-05-30T11:50:37Z")
I’m sure you’re going to dispute the point, but all of your questions have been answered in this thread. > [@curlcoat](#): > > My reasoning, a non antivax person, is: > > Do we need to give that many vaccinations to achieve immunity? > Is it a good idea to give so many at the same time? > Is it a good idea to start at birth? > Is there any connection to the number of vaccinations and the rise in many autoimmune diseases? The answers are: - Yes, and that number is dropping as the number of antigens are reduced further. But we’re adding more diseases to the list we’re protected against and that’s a good thing. - Yes, there’s no observable risk at the current levels - Yes, it’s beneficial to start as soon as is possible - No, it’s been heavily studied and no correlation has been observed ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/588 "2013-05-30T18:26:26Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Ya know, you of all people should know what I mean since I’ve said the reason it came up was the link between over - vaccination in dogs and auto immune disease in later life. > > This started with dogs, and in them the long term starts years after the original series of vaccinations. > > My reasoning, a non antivax person, is: > > Do we need to give that many vaccinations to achieve immunity? > Is it a good idea to give so many at the same time? > Is it a good idea to start at birth? > Is there any connection to the number of vaccinations and the rise in many autoimmune diseases? > > Note there is nothing in there about not give vaccinations at all. Except vaccination has not been found to cause increases or long-term problems of immune diseases in dogs. There is an association (mostly temporal) between getting some vaccines and developing some auto-immune diseases (hypersensitivities), but the direct cause and effect has not been found in many of those diseases. And it is acute (ie, occurs shortly after giving the vaccine). Not long term. Unless the definitions you and I are using are different. As to your questions, they have been answered (for humans, even) throughout the thread. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/589 "2013-05-30T19:15:39Z")
**curlcoat** , Your questions have been answered repeatedly and far more politely than you deserve after calling people Nazis and all kinds of other very nasty names. Why the fuck are you still asking them? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/590 "2013-05-30T20:20:08Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Well looky there - a cite! Isn’t that great, thanks. _“A”_ cite? Looky here as well: From [this post by **LavenderBlue**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16313625&postcount=509) in post #509 that I referred you to earlier (and which was cited previously by **Jackmannii** as well, back in post #304, and me in post #419): [Vaccination and autoimmune disease: what is the evidence?](http://image.thelancet.com/extras/02art9340web.pdf) This article describes, among other things, - large-scale studies of possible connections between Hep B vaccine and multiple sclerosis diagnoses in patients in the 1990’s, some of which had tracked patients since the '70s and '80s; and - a 10-year study on possible connections between vaccination and diabetes. You responded to citations of that article in post #318 and #425: > [@curlcoat](#): > > Most of it I didn’t understand, but the gist of it was that they realize that vaccinations could trigger problems in people susceptible to an autoimmune disease, but to study it would be as above. […] > > I already responded to the 10 year follow up (I note that you all expect me to read every post here, but don’t bother to read mine) but it wasn’t clear that the MS/hep B connection was something that happened years down the road and not right away. It’s clear that you not only didn’t understand the article but didn’t even bother reading it closely enough to notice that it **did** refer to and cite numerous studies of long-term effects of vaccines. [QUOTE=curlcoat] How about if you go back and read my responses at that time? [/quote] As I noted above, you have never responded to these cites in any coherent way, or paid any attention to the actual information in them. A few posts from now, you’re probably going to be claiming again that you still haven’t been given any cites. > [@curlcoat](#): > > But I’d also would like to know if it’s really necessary to get all the boosters, if it’s really necessary to get so many vaccinations at once and/or so early in life. I would want to know that I am not trading short term comfort for long term problems later in their lives. If I bought a new set of tires because the old ones were worn out and unsafe, I would want to know that the new ones would never fail in some unexpected way and cause an accident later in my life. But I’m not dumb enough to think that that question can be answered definitively with no possible shadow of a doubt, or that the lack of a 100% definitive answer somehow justifies me in ignoring my need for new tires. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Hum. Seems short sighted but OK. Why is it “short sighted”? Are you seriously advocating that no medical measure for any dangerous disease should be approved until it’s been comprehensively studied over patients’ entire lifetimes? > [@curlcoat](#): > > OTOH, since antigens have been shown to produce long term negative effects in another mammal, a fairly complex one And apparently, according to **KarlGrenze** ’s post, you couldn’t even get that part right. > [@curlcoat](#): > > should’nt there be some concern about humans? _Researchers **ARE** studying possible long-term negative effects of antigens in humans. Pretending that this is some kind of new idea or that medical research doesn’t address this issue is just antivax “concern troll” bullshit._ > [@curlcoat](#): > > Nope, all I ask for is a cite. I have one now, one one disease/condition. Evidently you either can’t read or can’t count, or both. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/591 "2013-05-30T20:47:16Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > Jumping in quite late, and haven’t read the whole thread, but I picked up that there is a vaccine for chicken pox? … > Yeah, yeah, I know it’s non-lethal, no lasting effects, … Well there IS the risk of shingles showing up decades down the road. I’ve got that to look forward (possibly) to also. No CP vax yet when I was a kid. My entire first grade had it over the course of a few months. They didn’t have mumps vaccine yet either. When it came out, my mom insisted I have it. This despite irrefutable photographic evidence that I had already had the mumps years before, and she had forgotten. I remember lining up and the whole class marching to the gym for our polio shots, and later for the TB shots. I think the TB thing was some sort of detection thing rather than a vaccine. You got a sore at the injection site if you were an asymptomatic carrier…anyone know about that?? ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/592 "2013-05-30T21:00:07Z")
I get a TB test (PPD skin test) yearly. A subcutaneous injection of certain extracts of the TB organism will result in a skin reaction if you have ever been exposed to TB or received a TB vaccination. I’ve got a co-worker who received prophylactic treatment for TB many years ago after working with someone who had TB. Every few years he has to go 'round again with our Employee Health department to avoid repeat chest Xrays because he can’t take the skin test. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/593 "2013-05-30T21:01:37Z")
The TB thing might be a memory of the [Mantoux test](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantoux_test), which causes a hardened, raised lump in those who test positive for TB exposure. Many people (healthcare workers among them) get it yearly, and a chest x-ray can determine in those who test positive if they have/ever had TB, or if it’s just a false positive/you were exposed but not actually infected. Edit: Damn, too slow. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/594 "2013-05-30T21:02:21Z")
BTW, and a again whatever happens in other species, while interesting (and important in my profession), does not necessarily imply it happens in humans (see: cats). And it seems the human side has given enough cites defending their points. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/595 "2013-05-30T21:58:24Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Even more potent is the fear among parents of “needlessly” (i.e., no immediately perceivable benefit) inflicting pain, however temporary, on one’s baby. I’m sure that’s a big part of it, though it doesn’t completely explain the paranoid fantasies people construct. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/596 "2013-05-30T22:27:04Z")
It is obvious that curlcoat’s learning curve is in a power dive. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/597 "2013-05-30T22:32:04Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > I’ve got a co-worker who received prophylactic treatment for TB many years ago after working with someone who had TB. Every few years he has to go 'round again with our Employee Health department to avoid repeat chest Xrays because he can’t take the skin test. Getting prophylactic treatment for TB wouldn’t affect accuracy of the common (Mantoux) skin test for TB. And in any case there are blood tests for TB available for those who might have a false positive TB skin test, for example if they earlier received a BCG vaccine. Most Dopers probably know the TB test is not a vaccine. But antivaxers commonly have the same visceral reaction against it, calling it “forced medical experimentation” or “legalized bio-terrorism”. The common denominator with vaccines is that the TB test requires despoiling one’s precious bodily fluids with Toxins. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/598 "2013-05-30T23:23:25Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Getting prophylactic treatment for TB wouldn’t affect accuracy of the common (Mantoux) skin test for TB. True enough. It was the TB exposure that disallows the skin test. He never contracted active TB but did react to a skin test at that time and was treated preventatively. > [@](#): > > And in any case there are blood tests for TB available for those who might have a false positive TB skin test, for example if they earlier received a BCG vaccine. Eh, you’d have to take that up with our EH dept. I just hear the multiple phone conversations every few years when he refuses to take another Xray for no reason. I’ll try to remember next time to have him ask about alternative blood tests. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/599 "2013-05-30T23:58:06Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > Well there IS the risk of shingles showing up decades down the road. I’ve got that to look forward (possibly) to also. No CP vax yet when I was a kid. My entire first grade had it over the course of a few months. There is a shingles vaccine for those of us not fortunate enough to be young enough to have had the CP vaccine available to us. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/600 "2013-05-31T00:46:23Z")
The anti-vax get even more disgusting. [Here’s an entire column](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/05/30/can-antivaccinationists-knock-it-off-with-the-autism-holocaust-analogies/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook) by Dr. David Gorkski where they repeatedly compare vaccine heroes to Nazis. This paragraph is particularly vile: > [@](#): > > The enablers may not belong in Nuremburg, but they do belong in jail, Bobby said. “I would do a lot to see Paul Offit and all these good people behind bars,” he said, after listing Offit’s litany of lies and profit. Just to make sure people got the point, he returned to it in his speech. “Is it hyperbole to say they should be in jail? They should be in jail and the key should be thrown away.” Bobby Kennedy Jr. wrote a notoriously stupid anti-vax article for Salon a few years ago. The article was repeatedly debunked and yet Kennedy won’t shut his yap. His criticism of Offit is absurd. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=31)