# Massive measles outbreak - thank you, Andrew Fucking Wakefield **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119 "2013-04-19T10:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/621 "2013-05-31T17:34:59Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I can ask Dr. Offit for more info. He was so kind and helpful while we were writing our book. I’ll also ask my fellow pro-vax peeps on Facebook That would probably make a really good article for a major magazine or newspaper . . . . > > 😃 > > **WhyNot** ’s excellent post has some very good additional details. I think it would be. Breastfeeding is very useful, but I do know, from the rounds I see on FB on the pseudoscience/fear of science crowd, that there is this idea that if you breastfeed, you don’t have to vaccinate. Not to say breastfeeding for longer cannot have any benefits (like being cheaper and relatively easier). ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/622 "2013-05-31T18:27:03Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Less concerned, but the vaccinations for chicken pox, mumps and measles weren’t available when I was a child. Back then, those were things we just expected to get at some time and I don’t remember there being any serious concern when it happened. Neither my brother nor I went to the dr when we got chicken pox and I didn’t when I got the mumps, I don’t remember if he did. I see three possibilities. 1. Your parents were the type that didn’t worry about it. 2. Your parents were the type that worried about it, but did what they could to shield you from the worry 3. Your parents worried about it, but you weren’t aware enough to pick up on it. If you only ever had mild cases, its quite possible that they didn’t worry too much about it. When I was growing up, my parents only had major medical - which means you had to be pretty darn sick to get to the doctor. Something like chicken pox, which there was no medicine for, and which the treatment was “aspirin, lots of liquids, rest, oatmeal baths and calamine lotion” (this was in the days when kids got aspirin) wouldn’t warrant a trip to the doctor unless the fever spiked enough that hospitalization was needed or an infection occurred. That doesn’t mean that they weren’t worried - my mother had a cousin die of some “minor” childhood disease like chicken pox and my grandfather had lifelong problems from his - but it wasn’t like there was anything anyone could do, and worrying us about them was certainly not going to help. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/623 "2013-05-31T19:43:53Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > OTOH, giving vaccines while the baby has good passive immunity may not help with the development of the baby’s own immune system. Since she/he already has antibodies that will respond to the vaccine antigen (via the mom). Huh? The research I’ve encountered contends that breast feeding stimulates the babies own immune system which better enables it to respond with the production of more antibodies, providing a higher level of immunity when immunized. The passive immunity conferred via breast milk is not as strong as the passive immunity conferred via blood transfusion, serum injection or antibodies passed through the placenta during late pregnancy, as blood carries more antibodies than breast milk, and blood to blood transfusion or serum injection is a more direct transference compared to breast milk, which is absorbed or passed to the infant through it’s gastrointestinal system. [General Recommendations on Immunization](http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/genrec.html) (May 2012) > [@](#): > > Breastfeeding does not decrease the response to routine childhood vaccines and is not a contraindication for any vaccine except smallpox. Yellow fever vaccine should be avoided in breastfeeding women. However, when nursing mothers cannot avoid or postpone travel to areas endemic for yellow fever in which risk for acquisition is high, these women should be vaccinated.\*\* Breastfeeding also does not extend or improve the passive immunity to vaccine preventable disease that is provided by maternal antibody except possibly for Haemophilus influenzae type b. Breastfed infants should be vaccinated according to recommended schedules.\*\* Although rubella vaccine virus might be shed in human milk, infection of an infant is rare. LAIV may be administered to a woman who is breastfeeding if she is otherwise eligible; the risk of transmission of vaccine virus is unknown but is probably low. **emphasis mine** Or check out this[little chart](http://www.cdc.gov/breastfeeding/recommendations/vaccinations.htm)provided by the CDC of vaccination precautions for breastfeeding. If the mother has been vaccinated for MMR, before pregnancy (vaccination is not recommended during pregnancy as MMR is a ‘live’ virus and can harm the fetus), this immunity is passed to the fetus via blood circulating through the placenta and can provide the baby protection for ~12 months after birth. And if you look at the [CDC infant/child schedule](http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/downloads/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs.pdf)of immunizations, the MMR vax is not scheduled until 12 months of age. But again, in response to **curlcoat** , this protection is not passed via breast milk, but through the placenta during late pregnancy. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > According to an interview I did with Dr. Offit himself, immunity via breast feeding does not last in most cases past six months. That’s not long enough. Little kids are more vulnerable to many vaccine preventable diseases than adults are. They get more side effects. You and I might be able to shrug off pertussis as no more than a bout of unpleasant coughing but a baby will face the very real risk of long term side effects such as brain damage. 😕 Isn’t that what I said, here: > [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > Breast feeding tends to confer _[passive immunity](http://topics.wisegeek.org/topics.htm?passive-immunity#)_ which is weaker and temporary compared to _[active immunity](http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-active-immunity.htm)_. Breast feeding can certainly provide some protection against minor infections like colds or gastrointestinal bacteria and stimulate development of the baby’s immune system (so that it can better fight off serious diseases) and is even linked to reducing allergies, but breast milk can not provide the same level of protection for diseases that vaccines can via \*[active (artificial) immunity\*.](http://topics.wisegeek.org/topics.htm?artificial-immunity#) I was responding to **curlcoat’s** claim that breast milk provided adequate immunity compared to vaccinations – which it does not. Passive immunity conferred via breast feeding may help an infants immune system fight the disease once infected or reduce symptom severity, but it is no where near the level of protection provided by active immunity via vaccination, where the infants own immune system produces antibodies, likely preventing the infection to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/624 "2013-05-31T20:01:24Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Breastfeeding is very useful, but I do know, from the rounds I see on FB on the pseudoscience/fear of science crowd, that there is this idea that if you breastfeed, you don’t have to vaccinate. > . It’s not just on FB (I’m not on FB anyway), but many, many mommy blogs/forums and so called “vaccine truth” sites. Breast feeding is a[great complement to vaccinations](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19594471) and even reduces pain/stress responses or fever reactions during/after immunization, but is in NO WAY an alternative to immunizations. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/625 "2013-05-31T20:08:40Z")
You’re confusing “passive immunity” with breastfeeding, it seems. I meant that while the the mother has passed on good antibodies (and basically, that is what is passed by the colostrum/breastmilk/placenta), those antibodies can react to the vaccine (depending on the antigen). IOW, it may interfere with the part of the immune system that makes specific antibodies. But, as **WhyNot** has mentioned, the mom is usually unable to pass a good amount of antibodies by milk for some diseases. And she confirmed what I knew of other animals, that passive immunity ceases long before breastfeeding stops. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/626 "2013-05-31T21:03:46Z")
**Everwonderwhy** , I was just backing up what you wrote in case c **urlcoat** didn’t see it the first time. FYI, nursing a baby while they are getting a vaccine can greatly help reduce any pain the infant might feel: > **[The use of breast-feeding for pain relief during neonatal immunization...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17259038/)** > > The objective of this study was to examine the pain-relieving effect of breast-feeding during immunization injections in healthy neonates. Sixty-six healthy infants returning to a clinic for their second-, third-, or fourth-month immunization with... My eldest didn’t even flinch as long as she had a boob in her mouth during the shot. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/627 "2013-05-31T21:48:22Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > My eldest didn’t even flinch as long as she had a boob in her mouth during the shot. > > 😃 Most people probably wouldn’t. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/628 "2013-05-31T22:23:31Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > You’re confusing “passive immunity” with breastfeeding, it seems. Huh? No I’m not. Breast feeding does confer some passive immunity, but no where near the same protection provided through placental transference during late pregnancy or active immunity provided through vaccination. I think there is some confusion between the passive immunity conferred via breast milk (not much, but still beneficial) and the passive immunity conferred via blood through the placenta during late pregnancy. The reason this protection ceases long before weaning is because it was primarily transferred during gestation. And again, breast feeding delivers antibodies through the infant’s gastrointestinal system (ERGO diluted), not through direct blood-to-blood transference via the placenta. > [@KarlGrenze](#): > > I meant that while the the mother has passed on good antibodies (and basically, that is what is passed by the colostrum/breastmilk/placenta), those antibodies can react to the vaccine (depending on the antigen). IOW, it may interfere with the part of the immune system that makes specific antibodies. The amount of mom’s antibodies transferred by breast milk =/= amount mom’s antibodies transferred via the blood through the placenta. Breast milk confers more passive immunity related to gastrointestinal bacteria and possibly HiB. The woman can pass on MMR antibodies if she was vaccinated before pregnancy and this will protect the infant for up to ~12 months. Now, vaccinating the mom for pertussis during pregnancy can blunt the effect of the vaccination for the infant later, but vaccinating the mom during pregnancy provides protection to the infant during the most vulnerable time (first 3 months of life) so this outweighs any potential blunting effects later. [http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/pertussis/tdap-pregnancy-hcp.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/pertussis/tdap-pregnancy-hcp.htm) > [@](#): > > By vaccinating a woman with Tdap during pregnancy her infant will gain pertussis antibodies during the most vulnerable time – before three months of age. However, providing this early immunity may also interfere with the infant’s immune response to DTaP vaccine. The infant’s immune response to DTaP may not be as strong, but the clinical implications may not be significant. The benefits of vaccinating during pregnancy and protecting a newborn outweigh the potential risk of blunting the infant’s response to DTaP vaccine. Since infants are at greatest risk of severe disease and death from pertussis before 3 months of age – when their immune systems are least developed – any protection that can be provided is critical. Infants should receive their DTaP vaccines on schedule, starting at 2 months of age. Vaccinations are less effective in the presence of \* passive immunity when delivered by a ‘live’ virus\*. Which is why MMR, varicella, zoster, rotavirus, LAIV, and yellow fever are not generally given to pregnant or breastfeeding women. Infants are not immunized for MMR, varicella, zoster until 12 months of age when any passive immunity conferred during gestation has passed. The pertussis vax is shorter acting. The antibodies passed _during breast feeding_ are generally not enough to reduce an effective immune response upon vaccination. Anyway, I think we are all saying essentially the same thing: Breastfeeding good. Breastfeeding is NOT immunization. And yeah, I have little patience for the anti-vax crowd. I work in research and collaborate a bit with colleagues who work in global public health who see children suffering/dying from vaccine preventable diseases and things like leprosy. My mom had polio has a kid and almost died. While she miraculously recovered for the most part, her throat remains partially paralyzed to this day, so swallowing is still somewhat difficult. (she just eats really, really slow small bites) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/629 "2013-06-05T01:32:16Z")
I’m not reading this thread to see if it’s in here, but I’m guessing it isn’t. I just stumbled across this on James Lileks’ site – There Is Nothing New Under The Sun: > [@](#): > > Dr. Cruz was a noted physician and public health official, the sworn enemy of Plague and Smallpox. The latter lead to a bizarre outburst of public idiocy called the Vaccine Revolt: six days of riots over compulsory vaccination. The riots worked; vaccination was suspended. Four years later, hey presto: a hideous epidemic of smallpox. > > This time people were a bit more disposed to Dr. Cruz’s ideas. this was in Brazil. > **[LILEKS (James) Curious Lucre](http://lileks.com/money/money/brazil/9.html)** ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/630 "2013-06-05T03:42:00Z")
**Cal Meacham** , That kind of reaction was fairly common. Cotton Mather, the famous Boston preacher, campaigned in favor of smallpox vaccination. The nutters tried to bomb his house: > [@](#): > > [When Cotton Mather Fought The Smallpox (Aug 57,Vol:8 Issue:5)](http://www.americanheritage.com/content/when-cotton-mather-fought-smallpox?page=3) > > The epidemic continued to spread, the mortalities increasing. In August there had been 26 deaths, in September 101, in October over 400. Indignation against Boylston and Mather turned into rage. On the fourteenth of November a lighted bomb was thrown into Mather’s house, but the fuse came off and it failed to explode. That dumb fuck Cynthia Parker is still writting the most unreal crap in her ongoing campaign against our book. Here she is making up her own science: > [@](#): > > [http://www.amazon.com/review/R2IB5T7H5DF0D9/ref=cm\_cr\_rev\_detmd\_pl?ie=UTF8&asin=144221578X&cdForum=Fx33OGYSYR89YXM&cdMsgID=Mx3946DUHR89ZZ3&cdMsgNo=25&cdPage=3&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx1SR18OT6K69QF&store=books#Mx3946DUHR89ZZ3](http://www.amazon.com/review/R2IB5T7H5DF0D9/ref=cm_cr_rev_detmd_pl?ie=UTF8&asin=144221578X&cdForum=Fx33OGYSYR89YXM&cdMsgID=Mx3946DUHR89ZZ3&cdMsgNo=25&cdPage=3&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx1SR18OT6K69QF&store=books#Mx3946DUHR89ZZ3) > > ciaparker says: > > The hep-B vaccine contains the surface antigens of hep-B viruses incorporated into a yeast protein’s DNA and cultured in a medium containing soy and sugar. The vaccine contains aluminum and formaldehyde as well. The Merck Manual defines encephalitis as an allergic reaction to a disease or a vaccine causing inflammation of the brain. The surface antigens used in the vaccine are by defnition, antigenic, or allergy-provoking. Any of its other ingredients, including the foreign proteins, can provoke an allergic reaction. I have no opinion on the mouse study. Mice are (immorally) used in many experiements because it is supposed that their reactions will resemble those of humans. I was diagnosed with MS in 1990: at that time they hadn’t yet decided whether they thought it was an autoimmune disease, but they soon decided that it was. So it is a question of provoking the neurological system into attacking and ripping off the myelin sheaths at the ends of the nerves in the brain and spinal cord. Thousands of people believe that their MS was caused by a vaccine reaction, including the thousands of people in France who sued the government for requiring the hep-B vaccine that several hundred of them were certain had caused their MS. I am certain that the vaccine reaction which paralyzed both arms the same day was part of the same syndrome that later manifested as MS. > > Why would medical people lie about vaccines? I’m sure most just tell themselves they’d better not think about it too closely, or they’d be in a pretty pickle. They know that they could cause themselves big problems that, as in the object lesson of Drs. Wakefield and Walker-Smith, they can see is a very real threat. So they just keep the record on in their mind that repeats The diseases can be deadly. The vaccines are usually safe. The vaccines prevent the diseases. Therefore, it’s ethical to push parents to get the vaccines. And then when the children in their practice come down on after another with autism, asthma, bowel disease, etc. etc., they just put on another record that repeats: It wasn’t the vaccine. All scientists agree that it wasn’t the vaccine. It wasn’t your fault. You’re in good company, we all agree that it wasn’t the vaccine. No one knows what is causing the huge, unprecedented wave of autism, asthma, allergies, etc. It’s a mystery that no one understands. Just keep telling yourself that, and you’ll be fine. The children, maybe not, but that’s the way it goes. I am not in favor of censorship but I want Amazon to stop letting her use my book as her damned blog. FYI, the alleged connection between hep b vaccination has been studied and found false repeatedly: [http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/multiplesclerosis\_and\_hep\_b.html](http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/multiplesclerosis_and_hep_b.html) She goes on and on about big pharm and then endorses Andrew Wakefield who is, of course, making money hand over fist peddling bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/631 "2013-06-05T05:11:19Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Couple of reasons: the primary being that it provides immunity to only the pathogens\* in the mother’s body while she’s breastfeeding\*. Yes, I know that part and I was assuming that the mother had been vaccinated so she would have those pathogens, so I couldn’t figure out why newborn babies were getting vaccinated if the mother was going to breastfeed. > [@](#): > > Remember, you only have a few searching antibodies to measles circulating in your system at any one time. This is true whether you were vaccinated or had measles yourself. Only if and when those searcher antibodies bump into a measles virus will they set off the immune system’s alarm and cause it to make _disease fighting_ antibodies to fight off the infection. So if the baby is exposed to measles before mom’s immune system is exposed to measles, her body will not put any antibodies into the milk. Only when mom picks up a virus inside \*her \*body (or, possibly, on her skin from skin-to-skin-contact with the infant; we’re not sure about that yet) will fighting antibody production start. In dogs, we are told there is no reason to vaccinate prior to weaning because the immunity provided from nursing will interfere with the vaccines ability to create immunity. Why do puppies not get something like Parvo while nursing? (Parvo can be brought in from outside on shoes, clothes, etc.) I am assuming that all of this works the same in mammals? > [@](#): > > And even that only applies for some illnesses. For reasons we don’t understand, breastfeeding appears to confer no immunity to pertussis. Maybe that’s one that our body hasn’t evolved skin level awareness of, maybe it takes longer for our bodies to recognize it and the virus has already replicated to levels that breastmilk antibodies can’t fight, we’re just not sure. But we do know that breastfed babies die of pertussis, whether their moms were vaccinated or had pertussis themselves as children. That one is particularly important that we have herd immunity to, since an newborn’s body simply won’t make antibodies against pertussis, even if you vaccinate them at birth. It just won’t work. Which is why the first shot for pertussis is at 2 months; then it will begin to work, but it still requires two more shots for full immunity and boosters in middle school and college. Pertussis is just a bitch, as our body apparently “forgets” that one quite easily. Huh. As an aside, why do they change the names of these things? Why is it now pertussis and not whooping cough? > [@](#): > > Why the :dubious:? Yes, that’s exactly what you should be doing, for exactly that reason. It’s not just about protecting the kids, it’s about protecting you, too. Well, two reasons. I’d never tell anyone else they had to do X to protect me, since that’s my job. But mostly because it isn’t about protecting me, it all about the kids. The article that started this thread was about the kids, even tho measles is much more dangerous in adults. No one is looking to make sure I’ve had a measles shot even tho I never had the disease, because I’m not around any kids. Same with pertussis. I have, or should have, immunity to polio, smallpox, diptheria, chicken pox and the mumps. Oh and tetnus. If people were really all that concerned with herd immunity as it applies to the whole herd, at least one of my doctors would be asking why I’ve never been vaccinated with all the things they’ve come up with since 50 years ago. But, I didn’t have kids, and so would have no grandkids, so apparently it isn’t necessary to make sure I am protected from measles, pertussis, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/632 "2013-06-05T10:28:35Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I am not in favor of censorship but I want Amazon to stop letting her use my book as her damned blog. Thanks for the link. It’s been a while since I abused the “no” button on the Amazon reviews. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/633 "2013-06-05T11:25:39Z")
> [@SpazCat](#): > > Thanks for the link. It’s been a while since I abused the “no” button on the Amazon reviews. I went to town too. I think I helped a couple of her comments reach that ‘0 for 6’ where Amazon stops showing it. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/634 "2013-06-05T12:16:33Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > In dogs, we are told there is no reason to vaccinate prior to weaning because the immunity provided from nursing will interfere with the vaccines ability to create immunity. Why do puppies not get something like Parvo while nursing? (Parvo can be brought in from outside on shoes, clothes, etc.) I am assuming that all of this works the same in mammals? Uhm, the reason you mentioned there is the same thing the other person explained. They don’t get parvo because the mother has antibodies against it, and can pass it. They can get parvo if the mother was not vaccinated, although this is uncommon because most mothers are vaccinated. Or in places with a high load of parvo contamination, overcrowding, and poor hygiene. I think I figured out something I forgot earlier. Humans, unlike most other mammals, do receive the bulk of their maternal immunity via their placenta. Most other animals have other types (multiple types) of placenta that only allow a lesser transfer (if at all) of antibodies. Hence, for most mammals, it is breastmilk that provides the maternal immunity. But again, not even that lasts throughout nursing. In some species, the ability to absorb the antibodies needed is greatest in the first few hours after birth, and shortly declines in a couple of days. In others, the ability to pass the antibodies and absorb them can last a bit more. But by the time the animal is weaned, it most certainly stopped getting maternal immunity a while back. I do have to point out that some diseases depend more on antibodies than others, and the immune system treats various diseases differently. While we focus on antibodies, in other diseases they are a secondary part, and the most important part is dependent on cell-mediated immunity. While placenta and breastmilk can pass the antibodies, they cannot pass cells. This is yet another reason why vaccines are important, because they can stimulate various parts of the immune system (some vaccines can do this better than others). By making sure all the components of the immune system are primed, they can better protect against diseases than just placenta or breastmilk would. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/635 "2013-06-05T12:22:22Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > I went to town too. I think I helped a couple of her comments reach that ‘0 for 6’ where Amazon stops showing it. Ah, so that’s how it works! I did it for some of the comments, but I may just go again and help reach that in others I may not have clicked… ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/636 "2013-06-05T12:32:38Z")
(Now I’m having a rather disturbing vision of **curlcoat** raising her puppies.) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/637 "2013-06-05T13:10:51Z")
What Amazon really needs is a ‘Nobody thinks you reviews/comments are useful, so you are no longer allowed to post here’ level. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/638 "2013-06-05T13:25:16Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Yes, I know that part and I was assuming that the mother had been vaccinated so she would have those pathogens, so I couldn’t figure out why newborn babies were getting vaccinated if the mother was going to breastfeed. AH! Okay, so it’s that you need to know a little more about \*how \*vaccines work, not that they work. No, if a woman was vaccinated more than a week or two before breastfeeding, there are no pathogens in her body. There are also no, or very few, active pathogen fighting immune cells (“antibodies”) in her blood stream. They’ve all gone into dormancy. There are “memory”, hunting antibodies that hang out in her lymph nodes and other places within the immune system that filter her fluids and are constantly testing for that pathogen they remember. If and when they find it, they send out chemical signals to create the active disease fighting antibodies according to the blueprints the body created at the time of first exposure/vaccination. But you can see this may take a little time. The immune cell that lasts after exposure or vaccination isn’t an active disease fighting antibody. It’s a gate sentry who can sound and alarm and call in the troops when they’re needed. The troops, however, need to be built when the alarm is sent. They’re like Army Reservists who need to be called up; they don’t hang around at the barracks all the time. So no, got measles or got vaccinated, neither the pathogen nor the disease \*fighting \*antibody is found in the body of the mother until/unless she’s again exposed to measles while breastfeeding. > [@](#): > > In dogs, we are told there is no reason to vaccinate prior to weaning because the immunity provided from nursing will interfere with the vaccines ability to create immunity. Why do puppies not get something like Parvo while nursing? (Parvo can be brought in from outside on shoes, clothes, etc.) I am assuming that all of this works the same in mammals? I don’t even know what I don’t know about dogs’ immune systems and vaccines, so I can’t answer that. Except to say that, no, there’s no good reason to assume that all of this works the same in all mammals. Digestion doesn’t work the same in cows and people, why should immunity? > [@](#): > > Huh. As an aside, why do they change the names of these things? Why is it now pertussis and not whooping cough? I think because several viruses can cause a whooping like cough, but only pertussis causes pertussis. But I’m really not sure. > [@](#): > > Well, two reasons. I’d never tell anyone else they had to do X to protect me, since that’s my job. But mostly because it isn’t about protecting me, it all about the kids. The article that started this thread was about the kids, even tho measles is much more dangerous in adults. No one is looking to make sure I’ve had a measles shot even tho I never had the disease, because I’m not around any kids. Same with pertussis. I have, or should have, immunity to polio, smallpox, diptheria, chicken pox and the mumps. Oh and tetnus. If people were really all that concerned with herd immunity as it applies to the whole herd, at least one of my doctors would be asking why I’ve never been vaccinated with all the things they’ve come up with since 50 years ago. But, I didn’t have kids, and so would have no grandkids, so apparently it isn’t necessary to make sure I am protected from measles, pertussis, etc. It’s very likely that if you brought it up to your doctor, she’d either order you titers to see if you’re immune already or give you the vaccine. My last doctor saw a lot of immigrants, and so he’d get everyone’s vaccination status and catch older children and even adults up based on another vaccine schedule from the CDC. If your doctor doesn’t, the problem is with your doctor; the tools and knowledge are available, and according the CDC guidelines, you \*should \*be checked if you are 55 years old. But your doctor is probably assuming you’re already immune, having gotten to your age living in the US. Not always a safe assumption, as you know. From the CDC: > [@](#): > > • Adults born before 1957 generally are considered immune to measles and mumps. All adults born in 1957 or later should have documentation of 1 or more doses of MMR vaccine unless they have a medical contraindication to the vaccine, or laboratory evidence of immunity to each of the three diseases. Documentation of provider-diagnosed disease is not considered acceptable evidence of immunity for measles, mumps, or rubella. > > Measles component: > > • A routine second dose of MMR vaccine, administered a minimum of 28 days after the first dose, is recommended for adults who > > ``` > are students in postsecondary educational institutions; > work in a health-care facility; or > plan to travel internationally. > > ``` > > • Persons who received inactivated (killed) measles vaccine or measles vaccine of unknown type during 1963–1967 should be revaccinated with 2 doses of MMR vaccine. > > Mumps component: > > • A routine second dose of MMR vaccine, administered a minimum of 28 days after the first dose, is recommended for adults who > > ``` > are students in a postsecondary educational institution; > work in a health-care facility; or > plan to travel internationally. > > ``` > > • Persons vaccinated before 1979 with either killed mumps vaccine or mumps vaccine of unknown type who are at high risk for mumps infection (e.g., persons who are working in a health-care facility) should be considered for revaccination with 2 doses of MMR vaccine. [Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) Recommended Immunization Schedule for Adults Aged 19 Years and Older — United States, 2013](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/su6201a3.htm) ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/639 "2013-06-05T14:14:07Z")
Writing has one t and I spelled it with two. Damn. I appreciate everyone’s support. **Kolga** and I would like to see Cynthia Parker banned from posting at Amazon or at least on our book. I think I can get her on the grounds that she references whale to and that is a holocaust denial website and hopefully therefore hate speech. She’s everywhere unfortunately. Here she is responding to a Time editorial about Oprah’s giving a speech at Harvard. Oprah is not directly anti-vax but she does tend to promote the woo when she can. \*\*Kolga \*\*was on campus attending her college reunion. > [@](#): > > CynthiaParker > > While Africa has an increasingly large burden of the develomentally-disabled resulting from increasingly more virulent vaccine programs in the Third World, Ms. Rhode White’s knowledge and willingness to engage in combat with unsavory characters like you are much more needed in the First World, where decades more of extenssve vaccine damage have placed us in much more of a crisis situation than in most Third World countries. Autism did not exist in China until the '90s, but now they have several million autistic children. Somalis did not have a word for autism because it never occurred there, but now the Somali community in Minneapolis has the second-highest concentration of autism in the world, as many as one in eight of their vaccinated children now has autism. The highest concentration is in vaccinated children in the Ugandan community in northern Germany. The services of vaccine critics struggling to save the lives and minds of children will be increasingly called for everywhere, so I don’t want to deprive Africa, but the U.S. and the U.K. have the highest rates of autism in the world, so we might just as well stay tnere to wage the battle for hearts and minds. > > Read more: [Viewpoint: Oprah as Harvard’s Commencement Speaker Is an Endorsement of Phony Science | TIME.com](http://ideas.time.com/2013/05/31/viewpoint-oprah-as-harvards-commencement-speaker-another-assault-on-science/#ixzz2VB6mVKvN) I want to see Parker get tetanus and then go back and beg for a booster shot. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/640 "2013-06-05T14:23:19Z")
> [@](#): > > No, if a woman was vaccinated more than a week or two before breastfeeding, there are no pathogens in her body. There are also no, or very few, active pathogen fighting immune cells (“antibodies”) in her blood stream. They’ve all gone into dormancy. There are “memory”, hunting antibodies that hang out in her lymph nodes and other places within the immune system that filter her fluids and are constantly testing for that pathogen they remember. If and when they find it, they send out chemical signals to create the active disease fighting antibodies according to the blueprints the body created at the time of first exposure/vaccination. But you can see this may take a little time. > > The immune cell that lasts after exposure or vaccination isn’t an active disease fighting antibody. It’s a gate sentry who can sound and alarm and call in the troops when they’re needed. The troops, however, need to be built when the alarm is sent. They’re like Army Reservists who need to be called up; they don’t hang around at the barracks all the time. > > So no, got measles or got vaccinated, neither the pathogen nor the disease fighting antibody is found in the body of the mother until/unless she’s again exposed to measles while breastfeeding. Uhm, passive immunity DOES transfer working antibodies. Once they are created, all the antibodies produced are “fighting type”. Granted, an active infection would produce even more refined antibodies. But, IIRC, mothers do produce antibodies that they can pass on to their offspring (via placenta or milk) Again, there is a confusion betweeen antibodies and immune cells. Immune cells are not transferred by passive immunity, and yes, unless there is an active infection, the cells present are memory cells. They will also produce more antibodies. In fact, the CDC itself recommends that pregnant women get some types of shots (the ones that won’t cause pregnancy problems), to boost the amount of antibodies (antibodies, not cells) that they can pass to the fetus. Recap: Passive immunity does transfer active, disease fighting antibodies that can help newborns combat diseases. But they do not pass on cells that can fight infections. Those cells are produced only if the baby itself gets the antigen all by itself (not antigen bound with antibody from mom). Also, these antibodies, since they are molecules (proteins), will degrade over time, so they do not last long (a few weeks, at most). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=33)