# Massive measles outbreak - thank you, Andrew Fucking Wakefield **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119 "2013-04-19T10:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/141 "2013-04-23T14:23:29Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The really nasty thing is that Wakefield did it for money. He pushed his bogus claims so that he could profit from an “alternative” vaccine. He did not even believe his own bullshit - he was simply subjecting people to disease so that he could make some cash. > > Really, he should be serving a life sentence. A true karmic comeuppance would be if his jailer had unlimited discretion to pocket any or all of the funds dedicated to Wakefield’s care and feeding. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/142 "2013-04-23T16:37:24Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I was under the impression that to go to school required it, and it was _universal_ - no kid was allowed in school without shots. I asked my husband, and my brother and they agree, _everybody_ got the shots, nobody skipped out. A bunch of vaccinations were still required to go to high school last decade. There may have been religious waivers, but I don’t know anybody who got one, not that we ever talked about vaccinations. By the time I went to university my county had lost my shot records :rolleyes: . I was able to attend by signing a waiver saying I consented to being quarantined during an epidemic. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/143 "2013-04-23T16:40:05Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Taking unvaccinated children on world travels should be considered child abuse. Seconded. I’d be comfortable seeing the State Department initiate a policy of withholding passports from non-vaccinated Americans. And withholding visas from non-vaccinated foreigners. I recognize, of course, that it couldn’t be an absolutist policy. That said, I believe it could be accomplished with a high bar for anyone who needed to secure an exemption (higher than Jennymccarthy-ist beliefs, at least). ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/144 "2013-04-23T16:44:30Z")
Vaccines are by far the biggest victory of medical science. History is loaded with epidemics that wiped out populations and today most people haven’t even heard of the diseases. Think about what smallpox is thought to have done to the Native American population and yet today it has been eradicated. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/145 "2013-04-23T19:01:44Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Seconded. > > I’d be comfortable seeing the State Department initiate a policy of withholding passports from non-vaccinated Americans. And withholding visas from non-vaccinated foreigners. I recognize, of course, that it couldn’t be an absolutist policy. That said, I believe it could be accomplished with a high bar for anyone who needed to secure an exemption (higher than Jennymccarthy-ist beliefs, at least). I’d second that. You’re free to do as you choose, of course - just know that your choices have consequences. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/146 "2013-04-24T17:14:46Z")
Someone may have made this point earlier, but I think part of the reason people find it easy to believe 'Vaccines cause autism" or similar crap is because modern medicine does have its share bad behaviour to live down. Rushing through medicine development, improper trials, incomplete documentation of side effects, all sorts of things. It makes it easier for people to buy an anti-vaccination screed. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/147 "2013-04-24T18:04:26Z")
No it doesn’t. None of the antivaxxers have put that much thought into it. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/148 "2013-04-24T18:12:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No it doesn’t. None of the antivaxxers have put that much thought into it. Considering how many people automatically apply the anitvaxer label to anyone who doesn’t completely agree with them on the subject, you really can’t know that. I personally would have a lot of trouble approving all of those shots if I had a kid, for all the reasons that **bldysabba** posted and more. Yet despite the fact that my reservations have nothing to do with autism, I was labeled right off. My husband works closely with the FDA, so I know how things get messed up during approval, but yeah, my concerns are just “more antivax babble”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/149 "2013-04-24T18:30:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No it doesn’t. None of the antivaxxers have put that much thought into it. The antivaxxers themselves maybe not. But, for instance, there are many more people today than there were in 2007 who will be willing to give credence to a halfway plausible, if completely made up, vilification of investment bankers. Anti vaxxers deserve every bit of scorn they get, but I do think some of the fertilisation for the seed they sow was provided by modern medicine. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/150 "2013-04-24T19:04:59Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I heartily endorse this piting. What’s going on right now is that fucker scared people away from vaccinating their kids a decade ago. So many kids in Wales don’t have immunity from measles. They live in Wales – what they really **need** is immunity to anthrax. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/151 "2013-04-24T20:36:48Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I don’t remember a lot of talk about Hib meningitis when I was growing up, but then again I had other priorities. It was [a pretty big deal](http://www.immunizationinfo.org/vaccines/haemophilus-influenzae-type-b-hib) to parents of affected kids. > > “Invasive Hib disease occurs most often at three months to three years of age, peaking at six to seven months of age. The disease is uncommon after age five years.” > > “Hib can cause a wide variety of serious infections, including pneumonia, severe throat swelling that makes breathing difficult (epiglottitis), and infections of blood, bones, joints, and the covering of the heart. Complications of Hib meningitis include blindness, deafness, mental retardation, learning disabilities, and death. About 5% of children (500 out of every 10,000) with Hib meningitis die despite antibiotic treatment.” > > Both diseases are less of a big deal now, since they’ve been drastically curtailed by immunization.Yes. And how personally you are affected. My mom’s baby sister (My mom was 20 years older than her :eek: ) got it when she was 3 months old, and never developed mentally beyond that and had recurring seizures. She was basically a baby in the body of a 15 year old by the time I remember her. She suffered from very severe cramps when she had her periods and cried incessantly, regardless of medication (two of my aunts are nurses). My aunts (grandma was dead by then) where consulting with a doctor to get her a hysterectomy when she died after having a violent seizure. I’ve mentioned before that we also had a neighbor who survived polio but was left profoundly disabled. You can bet I got each and every vaccine available when I was a kid. Same with my daughter. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/152 "2013-04-24T20:39:39Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Someone may have made this point earlier, but I think part of the reason people find it easy to believe 'Vaccines cause autism" or similar crap is because modern medicine does have its share bad behaviour to live down. Rushing through medicine development, improper trials, incomplete documentation of side effects, all sorts of things. It makes it easier for people to buy an anti-vaccination screed. “Science/medicine wuz wrong before!” is a popular woo argument (right up there with “They persecuted Galileo!”, used to defend quacks). There are people who thinking shouting “Vioxx!” is an effective argument to prove that Vaccines Are Bad and Mainstream Medicine Is Evil. But as noted, immunization is a well-developed and heavily studied branch of science, and vaccines have been in use for hundreds of years. Every shot that goes into the current recommended vaccine series has been carefully studied and clinically tested. Moreover, vaccines are a relatively small profit center for drug companies, which have to deal with exhaustive manufacturing requirements (governments are important purchasers, with all the extra controls and paperwork that entails). Vaccines are not like the latest wonder drug that you might worry was rushed into production by people with $$$ on their mind (especially if your understanding of how drug companies operate is based on having seen “The Fugitive” 12 times). All those “badly behaving” people in modern medicine have children and other loved ones whose welfare they are deeply concerned with, and yet the vast majority of physicians follow the recommended vaccine schedule for their children. There’s a choice here - listen to the doom-shouters on the Internet because “medicine wuz wrong before!”, or go with the advice of professionals who’ve dedicated their careers to this line of work. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/153 "2013-04-24T20:54:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No it doesn’t. None of the antivaxxers have put that much thought into it. I briefly hung out at a board that was extensively anti-vax. What I found frightening was the amount of thought they did put into it. Sure, some of them were idiots, but some of them had put a lot of effort into their world view. It takes a certain effort to talk yourself into things, or at least to come up with plausible excuses for thinking them. If only they could have used their powers to benefit mankind. Like Superman, not Bizarro Superman. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/154 "2013-04-24T21:34:43Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Considering how many people automatically apply the anitvaxer label to anyone who doesn’t completely agree with them on the subject, you really can’t know that. I personally would have a lot of trouble approving all of those shots if I had a kid, for all the reasons that **bldysabba** posted and more. Yet despite the fact that my reservations have nothing to do with autism, I was labeled right off. My husband works closely with the FDA, so I know how things get messed up during approval, but yeah, my concerns are just “more antivax babble”. :rolleyes: The problem is that no one’s anti-vax. They’re all just in favor of safer vaccines. Even Wakefield himself will say that kind of garbage. So they move the goalposts and move the goalposts and move them until they finally admit they would only use a homeopathic vaccine – or one that is nothing more than diluted water. You get labeled anti-vax because you tend to come into these threads and voice similiar arguments even after your concerns have been proven to be rooted in ignorance. Which particular vaccines do you dislike and which particular diseases would you want to bring back if we stop vaccinating? ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/155 "2013-04-24T22:05:24Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Which particular vaccines do you dislike and which particular diseases would you want to bring back if we stop vaccinating? I like this question a lot. I’ll have to use it next time. With your permission, of course! ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/156 "2013-04-24T22:33:37Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Which particular vaccines do you dislike and which particular diseases would you want to bring back if we stop vaccinating? And, equally important, WHY do you you think these particular vaccines are bad? What is the evidence to counter the piles of trials and tests that have been done? Please note that I do NOT think that it is impossible to overturn those piles of trials and tests. No test is perfect. I used to work in the supplement industry, and we had a poster on the wall with a picture of a pill, captioned “that pill you’re about to take has not been tested.” We do our best to make sure that we do everything we can to ensure safety, but everyone knows those attempts aren’t perfect. They’re pretty damned good, but not perfect. So it’s possible to overturn these tests - it just takes evidence, not a vague, “well, it COULD be wrong, so…” ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/157 "2013-04-24T23:14:22Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > The problem is that no one’s anti-vax. They’re all just in favor of safer vaccines. Even Wakefield himself will say that kind of garbage. So they move the goalposts and move the goalposts and move them until they finally admit they would only use a homeopathic vaccine – or one that is nothing more than diluted water. You get labeled anti-vax because you tend to come into these threads and voice similiar arguments even after your concerns have been proven to be rooted in ignorance. > > Which particular vaccines do you dislike and which particular diseases would you want to bring back if we stop vaccinating? Well, thank you for proving my point that pro-vaxers, or whatever you want to be called, are just as able to jump to conclusions as the anti-vaxers. Do you mind providing a link to where my concerns “have been proven to be rooted in ignorance”? I certainly don’t remember that, but then I come from a time when we only got a bare minimum of shots so perhaps my memory was damaged. After that, try going back and actually reading my post and addressing that, instead of what you project to think it says. Not all people with some negative views of vaccinations are anti-vax. The world is never black and white. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/158 "2013-04-24T23:22:02Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Seconded. > > I’d be comfortable seeing the State Department initiate a policy of withholding passports from non-vaccinated Americans. And withholding visas from non-vaccinated foreigners. I recognize, of course, that it couldn’t be an absolutist policy. That said, I believe it could be accomplished with a high bar for anyone who needed to secure an exemption (higher than Jennymccarthy-ist beliefs, at least). What do you think would be a reasonable bar for exemption? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/159 "2013-04-24T23:28:04Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Well, thank you for proving my point that pro-vaxers, or whatever you want to be called, are just as able to jump to conclusions as the anti-vaxers. Do you mind providing a link to where my concerns “have been proven to be rooted in ignorance”? I certainly don’t remember that, but then I come from a time when we only got a bare minimum of shots so perhaps my memory was damaged. > > After that, try going back and actually reading my post and addressing that, instead of what you project to think it says. Not all people with some negative views of vaccinations are anti-vax. The world is never black and white. You wrote: > [@](#): > > I personally would have a lot of trouble approving all of those shots if I had a kid I ask again. Which particular vaccines do you dislike and which particular diseases would you want to bring back if we stop vaccinating? The MMR so we can get measles, mumps and rubella again? The DTaP so we can get more pertusiss, more tetanus and more diphtheria? The polio? The hib? The hep b? The gardasil? The rotovirus? You wrote it. Now tell us what you really mean. Which diseases would like back again? Hib that killed hundreds of babies each year until the vaccine was developed in the 1980s? Measles with a one in three risk of complications? Blind, deaf and mentally retarded babies from CRS? Polio so we can watch people need iron lungs again? Tell us. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/160 "2013-04-24T23:41:25Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > The DTaP so we can get more pertusiss, more tetanus and more diphtheria? I hope not this one. I just got a TDaP today because I could use a tetanus booster. The doctor recommended a full TDaP over the Td because whooping cough is making a comeback (those damned anti-vaxxers may be the death of us all). Also, I’m travelling abroad soon, so I got 2 other vaccinations today while I was at it (combined Hep A/B and Typhoid), making it a mildly painful day for me. I didn’t have any “trouble approving all those shots”. The research is solid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=9)