# Massive measles outbreak - thank you, Andrew Fucking Wakefield **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119 "2013-04-19T10:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/161 "2013-04-25T00:15:17Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Which diseases would like back again? Hib that killed hundreds of babies each year until the vaccine was developed in the 1980s? Measles with a one in three risk of complications? Blind, deaf and mentally retarded babies from CRS? Polio so we can watch people need iron lungs again? I’d like to see a revival of the plague. Yeah, I know, there hasn’t been any plague vaccine (it’s actually one of those diseases vanquished largely by “better hygiene”). Plague however is among the infectious diseases some antivaxers cite as no big deal. No, really. Epidemics are a form of natural selection doncha know, a means of weeding out the weak and unworthy (unlike folks who deride the need for vaccines, as they are superior beings with superior immune systems). I had one on a forum awhile back telling me, so what that a third of the world died during the worst of the plague outbreaks. Humanity survived, dinnit? There’s no comeback for a stumper like that one. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/162 "2013-04-25T01:13:45Z")
> [@drew870mitchell](#): > > What do you think would be a reasonable bar for exemption? I’m comfortable with having the bar set by medically-trained personnel, the kind who give vaccinations as a matter of course, but still recognize factors that lead them to recommend against their use for certain patients. TL;DR: A doctor’s note. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/163 "2013-04-25T05:49:42Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > “Science/medicine wuz wrong before!” is a popular woo argument (right up there with “They persecuted Galileo!”, used to defend quacks). There are people who thinking shouting “Vioxx!” is an effective argument to prove that Vaccines Are Bad and Mainstream Medicine Is Evil. > > … > > There’s a choice here - listen to the doom-shouters on the Internet because “medicine wuz wrong before!”, or go with the advice of professionals who’ve dedicated their careers to this line of work. Hey, all I’m saying is, IMO, it’s easier for people to buy some of the nonsense that’s out there because medical science has some significant black marks against its name. Rationally, your counter points are great, but you’re talking to the wrong person. I have no apprehensions about vaccines, and I’m good at separating fact from fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/164 "2013-04-25T06:04:44Z")
Maybe if there was a measles outbreak in Italy and we could be Wakefield to go there. They’ll put scientists in jail for bad science. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/165 "2013-04-25T08:11:16Z")
French Guiana (along with other equatorial South American and African countries) require a “Yellow Card” (International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis–ICVP) certifying that you have a yellow fever vaccination before you can enter the country. I’ve always hoped that Jenna and Wakefield would travel to FG with a fake ICVP just to prove a point. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/166 "2013-04-25T08:25:14Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Maybe if there was a measles outbreak in Italy and we could be Wakefield to go there. They’ll put scientists in jail for bad science. Knowing the Italian justice system, they’d probably side with Wakefield. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/167 "2013-04-25T09:02:51Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Knowing the Italian justice system, they’d probably side with Wakefield. What do you know about the Italian justice system? You’re not just posting this in the hope that nobody will call you on it, are you? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/168 "2013-04-25T09:08:57Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Seconded. > > I’d be comfortable seeing the State Department initiate a policy of withholding passports from non-vaccinated Americans. And withholding visas from non-vaccinated foreigners. I recognize, of course, that it couldn’t be an absolutist policy. That said, I believe it could be accomplished with a high bar for anyone who needed to secure an exemption (higher than Jennymccarthy-ist beliefs, at least). I’d be happy for visas to be withheld (excepting a doctor’s note) but not passports. They’re essential ID for anyone who can’t drive and other countries can make their own decisions about whether or not to let unvaccinated people in. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/169 "2013-04-25T09:42:08Z")
One annoying fact, loosely related to Tragedy of the Commons or something, is that _If almost all of the other kids are getting a vaccine, Then I wouldn’t want my kids to get it!!_ (although I woldn’t break the law). They don’t need it – they’re protected by herd immunity – but risk bad side-effects of the vaccine. (Of course if other parents are avoiding vaccines, then I’d want to vaccinate my kids.) This is why many vaccinations must be a matter of government coercion, rather than parental information. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/170 "2013-04-25T10:40:51Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > What do you know about the Italian justice system? I know that they sentenced some scientists to six years in prison for failing to predict an earthquake, and last I heard, they’re still going after that American woman over that prosecutor’s psychotic delusions about satanic cults. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/171 "2013-04-25T10:49:26Z")
[The UK has gone into action mode](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22276975), trying to get every child vaccinated they can. > [@](#): > > One million schoolchildren in England who missed MMR jabs are to be targeted by a vaccination plan aimed at curbing the growing threat of measles. I guess the UK government are all Big Pharma shills now. ---
**Author:** ![MickNickMaggies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/59ef9b/32.png) [@MickNickMaggies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MickNickMaggies)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/172 "2013-04-25T11:26:21Z")
Of course they are, Gyrate. Because, remember, the it’s all the UK’s fault for banning import of Wakefield’s favoured ‘measles only’ vaccine. If only that had been available… Wakefield makes me froth at the mouth. I get incoherent when he’s brought up in conversation. Is there a vaccine for that? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/173 "2013-04-25T12:51:23Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I know that they sentenced some scientists to six years in prison for failing to predict an earthquake, and last I heard, they’re still going after that American woman over that prosecutor’s psychotic delusions about satanic cults. An Italian court issued a ruling linking the MMR vaccine to autism, and a separate ruling blamed brain tumors on cellphone use (neither finding reflects good science) In addition to seeing Satanist conspiracies all over the place, the Italian “justice” system apparently is very woo-friendly. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/174 "2013-04-25T13:45:48Z")
> [@drew870mitchell](#): > > What do you think would be a reasonable bar for exemption? Documented allergy to a component of the vaccination [like the egg allergy to the one nurtured in chicken eggs FREX] > [@SciFiSam](#): > > I’d be happy for visas to be withheld (excepting a doctor’s note) but not passports. They’re essential ID for anyone who can’t drive and other countries can make their own decisions about whether or not to let unvaccinated people in. In the US as far as I know every single state has a ‘state ID’ available to people who do not drive. Some states they are free, other states there is a minor charge similar to the charge for maintaining a drivers license.[This](http://www.ct.gov/dmv/cwp/view.asp?a=805&Q=244720) is the state info page on the one for Connecticut as an example. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/175 "2013-04-25T14:00:17Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > There is NO FUCKING EXCUSE, apart from your woollyheaded parental derpitude, “woollyheaded” ? I immediately reacted to this previously unknown adjective perceiving racism yet I appear alone. Does the “woolly” represent something other than “nappy” ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/176 "2013-04-25T14:02:10Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I know that they sentenced some scientists to six years in prison for failing to predict an earthquake, and last I heard, they’re still going after that American woman over that prosecutor’s psychotic delusions about satanic cults. Ok, so, newspaper clippings. But it was a serious question: what do you know about the Italian legal system. The “earthquake” decision is more complex than you are acknowledging, and the American woman was acquitted. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/177 "2013-04-25T14:02:32Z")
Wool inside the head, not on it. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/178 "2013-04-25T14:04:33Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Documented allergy to a component of the vaccination [like the egg allergy to the one nurtured in chicken eggs FREX] > > In the US as far as I know every single state has a ‘state ID’ available to people who do not drive. Some states they are free, other states there is a minor charge similar to the charge for maintaining a drivers license.[This](http://www.ct.gov/dmv/cwp/view.asp?a=805&Q=244720) is the state info page on the one for Connecticut as an example. There are lots of other reasons for people not to get vaccinated, like undergoing chemo or being immunocompromised in other ways or having a serious reaction to a previous vaccination. Some vaccinations, including rubella, can’t be given during pregnancy and it may be only then that a woman discovers she’s not immune. Are state IDs widely accepted in other states? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/179 "2013-04-25T14:16:55Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > The “earthquake” decision is more complex than you are acknowledging Not by a whole hell of a lot. They were charged with manslaughter because of the supposedly unclear, vague advice they gave the public on the earthquake threat. Guess what? In any country of half-way educated people (i.e. even if they’re barely above idiot level), scientists don’t make that call. The civil government uses scientific advice to make that call. When you get a hurricane warning or a storm warning or a fire warning, is it a scientist evaluating the necessity to evacuate or take action or is it the local government? Around Houston, at least, it’s the local mayors and county judges making those calls. I suppose that’s a bit “more complex” but only just and still appalling. > [@Mince](#): > > the American woman was acquitted. Not quite. Her original case was overturned _only on appeal after massive outcry on the international scale_. She only got a break when Italy was embarrassed on the international level by the massive levels of incompetence displayed, especially after the revelations of an opportunistic prosecutor with delusions of satanic rites and a Keystone Kops level local constabulary. And even that decision itself was overturned and a new trial ordered. That is, she’s not completely off the hook, even now. And that doesn’t begin to describe the other foibles of Italy, including the linking of the MMR vaccine to autism, linking cell phones to brain cancer, or certain members of the Italian judiciary and legislature claiming women wearing tight fitting blue jeans cannot physically be raped. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119/180 "2013-04-25T14:17:57Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > “woollyheaded” ? > > I immediately reacted to this previously unknown adjective perceiving racism yet I appear alone. Does the “woolly” represent something other than “nappy” > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Wool inside the head, not on it. Exactly. It’s about the way they think (or, rather, don’t think), not the way they look. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/massive-measles-outbreak-thank-you-andrew-fucking-wakefield/656119.md?page=10)