# Math Increasingly Suggests Election Fraud Against Hillary Clinton **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 17, 2016, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220 "2016-11-17T02:23:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220/121 "2016-11-24T17:50:16Z")
Just when you thought things couldn’t get more stupid … I know this is a stupid question from a dumb-ass European but what was wrong with a paper trail - you know, a bunch of very sweet middle aged ladies sitting down and counting piles of voting slips? Piles of voting slips open at all times to the candidates to check … Put another way, if you haven’t got a paper trail you aven’t got a democracy. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220/122 "2016-11-24T17:55:29Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Just when you thought things couldn’t get more stupid … > > I know this is a stupid question from a dumb-ass European but what was wrong with a paper trail - you know, a bunch of very sweet middle aged ladies sitting down and counting piles of voting slips? > > Piles of voting slips open at all times to the candidates to check … > > Put another way, if you haven’t got a paper trail you aven’t got a democracy. Actually, brilliant. The perfect defense against computer hacking and fraud is to not use computers. Just put a mark on a paper ballot (no punch cards, thank you very much). I could live with not knowing the results for a day or so if it increased my faith in the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220/123 "2016-11-24T17:57:35Z")
Is connecting voter machines to the internet a wide-spread practice? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220/124 "2016-11-24T18:02:42Z")
Your quote: > [@doorhinge](#): > > They only think there may have been some manipulation based on the fact that the DNC was too stupid to protect their computers from the Russians. This is false. Your attempt at clarification does not change that. You can either correct your mistake or continue to cling to your erroneous statement. Up to you, don’t care either way. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220/125 "2016-11-24T18:12:05Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Is connecting voter machines to the internet a wide-spread practice? AFAIK, it’s not done at all. That doesn’t mean hacking can’t be done, it just means it has to be done at the machine, which makes hacking an election to any great degree a bit of a Mission Impossible thing. If you’re interested there’s a bunch of examples on youtube of people showing the method for a couple of different types of electronic voting systems. Michigan and Wisconsin do not use systems very susceptible though. They are entirely paper based. Wisconsin has a a lot of scantron/optically scanned systems where it would be possible to mess with the counting system but there is still the paper trail. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220/126 "2016-11-24T18:19:47Z")
Yeah … kind of trying to imagine elections officials hire a bunch of undocumented Russians solely on that letter of recommendation from Putin … ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220/127 "2016-11-24T18:33:15Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Yeah … kind of trying to imagine elections officials hire a bunch of undocumented Russians solely on that letter of recommendation from Putin … Hmmm, what kind of accent did that shady janitor have? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220/128 "2016-11-24T23:25:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t think I’d heard it before, but a google search finds a usage back in 2006 by a [blogger, using it about Bush43’s election.](http://dragoncityjournal.com/posts/vol-30-1-the-margin-of-stupidity/) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220/129 "2016-11-24T23:57:01Z")
I think I said it before: if the hack is well perpetrated, the paper trail does not matter. The votes on paper ballots are still counted by machines which, in this day and age, record the tallies on an electronic storage cartridge, which is delivered to the elections office to be read into the main computer. The cartridges can, apparently, be tweaked to report false totals. If the totals are not too far off what looks reasonable but generate a margin that exceeds the state or local threshold for automatic recount, the election appears decisive and the paper trail is never touched. Hacking hundreds or thousands of cartridges is not a minor undertaking, but if you have a large organization and control over the election office, it could be doable. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220/130 "2016-11-25T17:40:59Z")
for historical reference - > [@Lobohan](#): > > I’d quibble that if your state is utterly gerrymandered against your interests, you might be less likely to vote. > > It’s probably not a big effect, but I’d suspect it has a negative pressure on turnout. (underline added) > [@doorhinge](#): > > I’d quibble that many Democrat voters were unimpressed by Hillary, or just didn’t like her. She’s certainly no Barack Obama, so why should they bother to vote. (underline added) > [@CarnalK](#): > > That’s not a quibble; it’s a completely different point. > > quib·ble/ˈkwibəl/ > noun > > 1. a slight objection or criticism Both posts suggested possible reasons why more (if there were any more) Hillary supporters did not vote. And yes, I also have a slight objection, or criticism, to those who suggest that gerrymandering somehow effects a state-wide election for POTUS, or U.S. Senator, or State Senator. Unless the politicians are moving state borders, gerrymandering does not apply. IMHO, of course. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220/131 "2016-11-25T18:12:05Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Both posts suggested possible reasons why more (if there were any more) Hillary supporters did not vote. (post shortened) Exactly. You didn’t have a quibble, you made an entirely different point. Hope you get it now. I could quote the dictionary again if you like. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220/132 "2016-11-25T18:31:14Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > (post shortened) > Exactly. You didn’t have a quibble, you made an entirely different point. Hope you get it now. I could quote the dictionary again if you like. I had a slight objection, or criticism, or quibble. You may quote the dictionary as often as you wish. I don’t believe it’s done often enough. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220/133 "2016-11-25T18:39:09Z")
You didn’t quibble. You didn’t make an objection or criticism of his point. You raised another reason why Hillary didn’t get votes. Since no one said gerrymanding was the only reason, you aren’t making a objection. Why are you having trouble with this? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220/134 "2016-11-25T18:51:51Z")
You have to ask? ---
**Author:** ![pleks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@pleks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pleks)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220/135 "2016-12-14T01:33:36Z")
> [@Flying\_Rabbit](#): > > I just watched a this David Packman video and wonder what Straight Dopers think of this. > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC8l-0e3pd0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC8l-0e3pd0) > > Exit polls are done in a completely different way than pre-election polls, and are historically much more accurate. According to Exit polls Hillary won in swing states that would have handed her the election. Some are saying election was flat out stolen from Hillary Clinton. > > Donald Trump lost North Carolina in exit polls 2, but won by 3.8 in votes, that is a 5.8. discrepancy, which is well outside of the margin of error in election polls. Pennsylvania Trump lost by 4.4 but won by 1.1 that’s a 5.5 discrepancy. Wisconsin, Florida— Trump also lost in the exit poll, but won in the vote count. According to Exit polls Hillary won in swing states that would have handed her the election. Out of curiousity, how does this math of yours (or David Packman’s, if you prefer, whoever that is) that “Suggests Election Fraud Against Hillary Clinton” stacks up against a recent recount in, say, Wisconsin, where Donald Trump gained a few extra hundred votes after 3 million ballots were manually processed? Do you think the next level of denial might, perhaps, be concentrated on those pesky and elusive Russian hackers? ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220/136 "2017-01-26T23:30:59Z")
No election is completely safe unless there is a paper trail at the end, and decent vetting of voters at the beginning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-increasingly-suggests-election-fraud-against-hillary-clinton/772220.md?page=6)